miners may they rest in peace

[3gulls]

I find it very odd that none of the NSC pro fox hunting lobby are on here remeniscing about how they helped fight for the miners in the '80s.

After all, they're REALLY concerned about a few job losses now, so no doubt they were on the picket lines when 160,000 were threatened with the dole back then.

I was squarely behind Sir Ian McGreggor and Maggie myself! Better dead than red and all that. You left-wing pacifist queers make me sick. I support the hunts because they are part of our ENGLISH way of life.

I also remember winding-up the Sheffield Wednesday northern scum at the Cup Semi-final in '83. They were all shouting about thir support for the miners and steelworkers, and being anti-maggie. Wankers!

 

[Lammy]

Sorry to be a bit anti here, but I remember the power strikes of the Heath government, and I believe that the miners brought it all on themselves. A trade union shouldn't be holding the country to ransom which is what it was about.

Trade unions had themselves to blame for the kneejerk reaction of the ligislation imposed by the Thatcher governement. They went beyond their purpose of protecting workers rights, to trying to exert political influence for the wrong reasons.

When the unions had so much power, we were the sick man of Europe; yes, it's easy to romanticise the 'struggle' against the government, but look how much better off as a country we are since sensible working relations have been adopted by all parties.

The trade unions were responsible for the deatch of our car industry, always going out on strike over trivial matters.

So, sorry, I have no sympathy for them and do not agree with the romantic view of a struggle against a power-crazed leader. She was, IMO, just what was needed by this country at that time. I'm not saying she didn't make mistakes, but she dragged the country forward,. If what she did was so bad, why is nearly all of the trade union legislation that she introduced still on the statute books?

Totally agree.

If the miner want to blame anyone then blame their unions.

It's like the unions coming out and saying we shouldn't work free overtime. Now I'm paid a salary to do a job and am not paid by the hour. We are also having to compete with countries like china with massive cheap workforce. There is no hidden pit of money to pay for all their demands. If we got paid for all our unpaid overtime we'd simply get a smaller salary. They really have a very clouded idea of the real picture.

 

[On the Left Wing]

I lived in Barnsley at the time of the strike and I have to admit my loyalties were split ... but three years later I spent seven months in hospital on a thorasic ward in Cardiff alongside many ex-Welsh miners (most suffering from chronic chest disease as a result of their jobs) .... it was a humbling stay and those men shifted my political view on life and on Scargill and the strike ... and I wished I had been more supportive those years earlier

PS my paternal grandfather and greatgrandfather were both miners .... dad avoided following them down the pit when the family moved south when he was just a boy

 

[Yorkie]

The biggest problem was open voting. Men had to vote in front of their colleagues and mates. If there had been a secret ballot the outcome may have been very different but the union leaders knew that open voting would mean all the miners voting to come out on strike not matter what the outcome because noone wanted to let down their mates.

The steelworkers didn't cause a lot of hassle because they knew that cheap steel was coming in from abroad and they couldn't keep up with the price and get a decent wage. My late father in law worked in Templeborough Mill in Rotherham. They accepted the redundancy packages and the area started to regenerate.
Where Meadowhall is now was once all steel mills.

 

[Brovion]

I find it very odd that none of the NSC pro fox hunting lobby are on here remeniscing about how they helped fight for the miners in the '80s.

After all, they're REALLY concerned about a few job losses now, so no doubt they were on the picket lines when 160,000 were threatened with the dole back then.

Ahem!

Ok, I'm not exactly pro-hunting but I'm not in favor of the current legislation either.

 

[London Calling]

The biggest problem was open voting. Men had to vote in front of their colleagues and mates. If there had been a secret ballot the outcome may have been very different but the union leaders knew that open voting would mean all the miners voting to come out on strike not matter what the outcome because noone wanted to let down their mates.

The steelworkers didn't cause a lot of hassle because they knew that cheap steel was coming in from abroad and they couldn't keep up with the price and get a decent wage. My late father in law worked in Templeborough Mill in Rotherham. They accepted the redundancy packages and the area started to regenerate.
Where Meadowhall is now was once all steel mills.

Areas such as Wales had voted in a democratic ballot I think it was 50.1 againgst a strike and obviously 49.1 for. I believe the Kent coalfield also voted with a whopping YES about 90% or so for a strike.

To the youngsters on heret he Kent coalfield was the most militant!

The Notts & Leics coalfield also voted but it was 60:40 (if I recall rightly) againgst a strike.

Only in Yorkshire did the Yorkshire NUM did not go for a democratic ballot> Why? Who knows what was going on in their minds. So we had the result of a show of hands!! Which led to 12 months of strife and gave any opposer to the strike a political opportubity to undermine it.

By the way Unions are their to represent their members. Officials are democratically elected.

If the Members did not want better working hours etc then the officials would not pursue this course of action.

UK can only win orders on quality, added value and high quality goods, we cannot beat the China's etc on the price of producing a plastic doll. Or better educated India with the call centres!

We compete againgst the G8 countries etc not the countries paying their workers rice!

 

[Lammy]

By the way Unions are their to represent their members. Officials are democratically elected.

If the Members did not want better working hours etc then the officials would not pursue this course of action.

Who doesn't want better working hours and more money?

How much money did the unions give to the Labour party?

What they need to realise is what is achievable and what is not. They went for far too much and got burnt.

 

[London Calling]

Who doesn't want better working hours and more money?

How much money did the unions give to the Labour party?

What they need to realise is what is achievable and what is not. They went for far too much and got burnt.

I don't suppose anyone on here disagrees with the mineworkers got burnt. Badly burnt.

To a few high level officials it was a Political game.

To the average miner it was a fight for jobs, their communities, their pride and as highlighted in the programme yesterday their faith. When this strike started unemployment in Wakefield District was over 20% (population 300,000) in South Yorks it was around 30% in Mexborough.

JObs were so important to these communities.

In some respects that strike broke the community village and town in Britain. In the south we don't really understand it, let alone have it!

LC

 

[Lammy]

In some respects that strike broke the community village and town in Britain. In the south we don't really understand it, let alone have it!

LC

I agree with this. As the other half is Welsh I have spoken to a number of ex-miners. Her grandad for example worked down the mines most of his life.

He believes mining was the worst thing to happen to Wales. Everyone was sooooo dependant on it. Wales is much more vibrant and diverse these days.

 

[looney]

The Right will say that history says the alternative is worse, and they'd rather see
ordinary people's lives ruined and our clubs destroyed by asset strippers and profiteers than live in a grey police state where you can't say what you think.

I reckon there is an alternative to both, and am going to carry on trying to find it!

The problem is your Ignorance of what the "right" beleives leads you to make it up and project your prejudices. In the end you will remain ignorant and intellectually poorer for it.

Alternative to both? You just another one book wonder.

 

[Yorkie]

If anyone really believes that unions represent their workers they ought to ask the colliery canteen ladies what happened to them.

I was a member of Unison all the time I worked in the supply industry (well, it's various incaranations) and when I got a verbal warning for my sickness absence after being in hospital 3 times in 18 months they were as useless as chocolate teapots.

 

[attila]

If you think Unison are useless you should try the Musicians' Union!

Looney, I am most certainly not 'ignorant' of what 'The Right' thinks. I have studied many of their ideologues, from Smith to Hayek to Friedman (that's Milton, not Dean!) I do know that anyone who supports laisser faire 'let the market decide' capitalism cannot have the slightest ideological quibble with what Archer did to us!

Anyway, I have long decided that I'm not going to have long political arguments on NSC, I prefer the pub, it's far more convivial and I can talk a lot faster than I can type.....

Arthur got it wrong, though I backed him 100% at the time.

 

[3gulls]

If you think Unison are useless you should try the Musicians' Union!

Looney, I am most certainly not 'ignorant' of what 'The Right' thinks. I have studied many of their ideologues, from Smith to Hayek to Friedman (that's Milton, not Dean!) I do know that anyone who supports laisser faire 'let the market decide' capitalism cannot have the slightest ideological quibble with what Archer did to us!

Anyway, I have long decided that I'm not going to have long political arguments on NSC, I prefer the pub, it's far more convivial and I can talk a lot faster than I can type.....

Arthur got it wrong, though I backed him 100% at the time.

Did you get your recorder out and play the miners a little tune, and show then your prance?

 

[On the Left Wing]

A thought in passing - one of my clients is a local coalfield regeneraton forum. In one particular area east of Sunderland the male unemployment rate is still over 12%. But more worryingly the long term unemployment is about 30%!
In some families there are 3 generations out of work and in these cases the youngest two generations have NEVER worked (these coalfields began to close in the 1960s) ... it is so very sad because the socio-economic effects are horrendous: isolated communities, no public transport to offer escape, high long term sickness, high crime, drug and alcohol problems and ZERO expectations. Yet 30 years ago these were thriving, tightly knit coalfield communities where everyone cared for everyone else (something I also remember from my years in Barnsley 79-84)
This is only partly due to Thatcher and Scargill, but more to do with the failure of successive governments to do ANYTHING at all!
Only in the past two years do the authorities seem to be tackling the problems ... but easier to turn a blind eye.

 

[3gulls]

A thought in passing - one of my clients is a local coalfield regeneraton forum. In one particular area east of Sunderland the male unemployment rate is still over 12%. But more worryingly the long term unemployment is about 30%!
In some families there are 3 generations out of work and in these cases the youngest two generations have NEVER worked (these coalfields began to close in the 1960s) ... it is so very sad because the socio-economic effects are horrendous: isolated communities, no public transport to offer escape, high long term sickness, high crime, drug and alcohol problems and ZERO expectations. Yet 30 years ago these were thriving, tightly knit coalfield communities where everyone cared for everyone else (something I also remember from my years in Barnsley 79-84)
This is only partly due to Thatcher and Scargill, but more to do with the failure of successive governments to do ANYTHING at all!
Only in the past two years do the authorities seem to be tackling the problems ... but easier to turn a blind eye.

And even their callcenter jobs are being move abroad now.

 

[On the Left Wing]

And even their callcenter jobs are being move abroad now.

The crazy thing is the call centre jobs at Doxford International (and there are hundreds of them) are only 5 to 10 miles from these communities ... but with no buses and most families witout a car, no retraining opportunities etc the chance to cut out a life is negligible

 

[Yorkie]

And even their callcenter jobs are being move abroad now.

In the electricity supply industry there was a takeover bid so the workers in Leeds and Bradfore earning 17K were made redundant and the work moved up to Peterlee because the work force there could be employed at 10K. That was 2002.

Now the telephone work is being moved abroad because the workers only want £10 a week.

 

[enigma]

Its sad but thats the unions fault, if the peasants in charge of them had thought a bit more long term than we wouldn't be in the situation.

 

[looney]

Looney, I am most certainly not 'ignorant' of what 'The Right' thinks. I have studied many of their ideologues, from Smith to Hayek to Friedman (that's Milton, not Dean!) I do know that anyone who supports laisser faire 'let the market decide' capitalism cannot have the slightest ideological quibble with what Archer did to us!

Anyway, I have long decided that I'm not going to have long political arguments on NSC, I prefer the pub, it's far more convivial and I can talk a lot faster than I can type.....

Arthur got it wrong, though I backed him 100% at the time.

I seriously doubt you have studied these topics as I have not seen one reference in a rightwing text to "laisser faire" in the same way I haven't seen "Political Correctness 3 easy steps" in a leftwing text. Markets and Capitalism are seperate issues and neither apply to Archer as that was down to bad management.

Markets are not promoted to make decisions they are promoted as a better way to reach outcomes already decided on.

i.e.
You want a taxpound spent on the NHS to go further? Then a competative bidding system(Market) is the best way to go about it.

 

[caz99]

I find it very odd that none of the NSC pro fox hunting lobby are on here remeniscing about how they helped fight for the miners in the '80s.

After all, they're REALLY concerned about a few job losses now, so no doubt they were on the picket lines when 160,000 were threatened with the dole back then.

exactly what i said a few days ago