Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[dsr-burnley]

Think you are Sadly in for a shock

Been suggested that they will use testing as a way to lower tiers, given that you can potentially still carry the virus after vaccination how do you see tiers being lowered at any real speed?

I have never seen any evidence that people can carry the virus in quantities that matter after vaccination. Have you? Most vaccines stop the disease from being passed on. Is there any evidence that this is different?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I have never seen any evidence that people can carry the virus in quantities that matter after vaccination. Have you? Most vaccines stop the disease from being passed on. Is there any evidence that this is different?

They don't know about passing on covid when vaccinated nor if you can still catch it yet.

Even if it picks up the slightest of illness in someone, do you think they will just wave that off?

 

[dazzer6666]

Think you are Sadly in for a shock

Been suggested that they will use testing as a way to lower tiers, given that you can potentially still carry the virus after vaccination how do you see tiers being lowered at any real speed?

.....because once all the vulnerable have been vaccinated, the very vast majority of the rest won’t get seriously ill from it, so the NHS can cope with those numbers that do. So even if it’s still being transmitted, those catching it largely won’t end up in hospital. The vacc programme will also be proceeding at huge pace, so the numbers even becoming mildly ill will be continuing to reduce also.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Think you are Sadly in for a shock

Been suggested that they will use testing as a way to lower tiers, given that you can potentially still carry the virus after vaccination how do you see tiers being lowered at any real speed?

I reckon that once the deaths, hospitalisations and cases drop there will be too much pressure on HMG to string it out for very long.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

.....because once all the vulnerable have been vaccinated, the very vast majority of the rest won’t get seriously ill from it, so the NHS can cope with those numbers that do. So even if it’s still being transmitted, those catching it largely won’t end up in hospital. The vacc programme will also be proceeding at huge pace, so the numbers even becoming mildly ill will be continuing to reduce also.

All the time they are still reporting cases they will still be under massive pressure to keep restrictions.

 

[dazzer6666]

All the time they are still reporting cases they will still be under massive pressure to keep restrictions.

Yes, but on a reducing scale........normality is a way off, but they will be dropping restrictions as soon as NHS conditions and infection rates allow.

Press reports today confirming the Gov aim is to start reversing through the tiers from March if the data supports it.

 

[A1X]

Seems to have been missed, this utter weapon yesterday

https://www.theguardian.com/law/202...tion-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

The former supreme court justice Jonathan Sumption has been criticised for telling a woman with stage 4 cancer that her life was “less valuable” during a televised discussion of the costs of coronavirus lockdowns.

Appearing on the BBC One show The Big Questions on Sunday to discuss the question of whether lockdown was “punishing too many for the greater good”, Lord Sumption, one of the most prominent anti-lockdown campaigners, said he did not accept that “all lives are of equal value”.

The former justice, who served on the supreme court until 2018, said he believed his children’s and grandchildren’s lives were “worth more because they’ve got a lot more of it ahead”.

Responding to Sumption’s remarks, Deborah James, who has stage 4 metastatic bowel cancer and hosts the BBC’s You, Me and the Big C podcast, said: “With all due respect, I am the person who you say their life is not valuable.”

Sumption then interrupted James, saying: “I didn’t say your life was not valuable, I said it was less valuable.”

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Yes, but on a reducing scale........normality is a way off, but they will be dropping restrictions as soon as NHS conditions and infection rates allow.

Press reports today confirming the Gov aim is to start reversing through the tiers from March if the data supports it.

I hope you are right, but also today Sage are saying not to release too soon as it will cause more mutations.

Guess we will see soon enough

 

[Is it PotG?]

 

[dsr-burnley]

Seems to have been missed, this utter weapon yesterday

https://www.theguardian.com/law/202...tion-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

This is a bigger issue than the words of just one man. The NHS has been working since its formation on the basis that some lives are "more valuable" than others. For example, if there is a scarce resource like a transplant, and they could save the life of either an otherwise fit and healthy child, or this lady with stage 4 cancer who is shortly to die of something else, then the surgeons will be unanimous in selecting the child for th the transplant.

Is this wrong? Should small children in need of a kidney transplant, say, be automatically put higher on the list than pensioners, or people with terminal cancer? How should they decide who gets the treatment if it isn't to be on the basis of whose life is "worth more"?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Seems to have been missed, this utter weapon yesterday

https://www.theguardian.com/law/202...tion-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

He also said that his life was worth less than his grandchildren/children.

It was worded awfully, which he admitted.

There was a Doctor on afterwards that explained it much better and it made sense, its not a nice subject - but it does not make it less true.

 

[Fignon's Ponytail]

Shoot me down if you want, but bear with me. I saw on social media Saturday night that an old friend posted a pic showing she had just had the vaccine. I messaged her as I thought maybe she is in a vulnerable group now.

Apparently her husband has volunteered to help out at clinics at weekends (hes usually a car salesman for one of the big £££ brands) and he called her Saturday evening to say they had a few doses left over...so get down and have it done.
Normally I wouldn't have a problem if it was an "everyday" jab for the flu etc, but I do kind of take issue with this because she is a very fit, healthy, 40yr old, who is furloughed from her job in a beauty salon & works part time at a supermarket now....& not in a vulnerable health group at all.

My main problem is A: Shouldn't extra doses be used for NHS staff? - of which there are plenty who still haven't been done yet, or B: someone who is in a more vulnerable category??

Great shes had it done and all that, Im sure its a big relief for them, but it just doesn't sit well with me how they've got it done - especially as my wife has worked at the RSCH for 25yrs, been working the weekend vaccine clinics as well as her 5.30am - 3pm weekday shifts, and still couldn't get me done if she wanted to! (I wouldn't move in front of someone more urgent anyway tbh...happy to wait for my turn later in the year whenever that is)

Like I said, shoot me down in flames if you want - but it just makes me a little uncomfortable tbh.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Shoot me down if you want, but bear with me. I saw on social media Saturday night that an old friend posted a pic showing she had just had the vaccine. I messaged her as I thought maybe she is in a vulnerable group now.

Apparently her husband has volunteered to help out at clinics at weekends (hes usually a car salesman for one of the big £££ brands) and he called her Saturday evening to say they had a few doses left over...so get down and have it done.
Normally I wouldn't have a problem, but I do kind of take issue with this because she is a very fit, healthy, 40yr old, who is furloughed from her job in a beauty salon & works part time at a supermarket now....& not in a vulnerable group at all.

My main problem is A: Shouldn't extra doses be used for NHS staff? - of which there are plenty who still haven't been done yet, or B: someone who is in a more vulnerable category??

Great shes had it done and all that, but it just doesn't sit well with me how they've got it done - especially as my wife has worked at the RSCH for 25yrs, been working the weekend clinics as well as her 5.30am - 3pm shifts, and still couldn't get me done if she wanted to! (I wouldn't move in front of someone more urgent anyway tbh...happy to wait for my turn later in the year whenever that is)

Like I said, shoot me down in flames if you want - but it just makes me a little uncomfortable tbh.

It could be a case of the staff in the clinic being done and its just a case of not wasting them, plus if she is in a supermarket working - what's the harm?

Is it the same clinic as your wife?

How practical is it getting an older person in at short notice?

How much more shelf life did the vaccine have?

 

[Fignon's Ponytail]

My wife wasn't working this Saturday unfortunately, so no idea.

I honestly dont know the ins and outs of the what was going on with all the doses....but I know my parents (76 & 79) could've got there within 20 mins if needed. Im sure many more would've done too.

Maybe its the way it has to be done, rather than waste any, but like I said, it just doesn't feel right to me...especially after its been drummed in to us that there is a certain method in the way the vaccines will be administered. Maybe its just Covid tiredness on my part from doing everything possible to follow the rules for 10 months or so, and I was hoping that the system would sort out those in need before ANYONE else..

 

[dazzer6666]

It could be a case of the staff in the clinic being done and its just a case of not wasting them, plus if she is in a supermarket working - what's the harm?

Is it the same clinic as your wife?

How practical is it getting an older person in at short notice?

How much more shelf life did the vaccine have?

This - common practice to use up the 'left overs' in each site - as I understand it's it's basically opened packages that have to be either used same day or binned. Very pleased they are finding efficient ways to use them rather than bin them. I know of one hospital that is vaccinating that effectively does a 'shout out' to staff at the end of each day to use up what's left - no reason why all vacc sites shouldn't be doing the same.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

My wife wasn't working this Saturday unfortunately, so no idea.

I honestly dont know the ins and outs of the what was going on with all the doses....but I know my parents (76 & 79) could've got there within 20 mins if needed. Im sure many more would've done too.

Maybe its the way it has to be done, rather than waste any, but like I said, it just doesn't feel right to me...especially after its been drummed in to us that there is a certain method in the way the vaccines will be administered. Maybe its just Covid tiredness on my part from doing everything possible to follow the rules for 10 months or so, and I was hoping that the system would sort out those in need before ANYONE else..

How would you pick the older person? They may have already been factored in.

I think its just easier to do what they did

One of my parents work at Princess Royal, they got the jab from leftovers - so it does seem they are doing staff when they can.

 

[crodonilson]

I hope you are right, but also today Sage are saying not to release too soon as it will cause more mutations.

Guess we will see soon enough

Lets hope this time the government genuinely does 'follow the science' and listens to Sage's advice.

 

[crodonilson]

Interesting piece on the BBC website about how the vaccines developed will ot be the magic bullet many people are hoping they will be.

Why the vaccine will not mean a return to normality

.....but many scientists and global health experts are warning that vaccines, with limited initial supplies and roll-out to selected groups, although protecting vulnerable groups and front-line health workers, are unlikely to transport us back to our old way of living anytime soon.

Tedros Ghebreyesus, head of the WHO, has said as much himself.

"A vaccine will complement the other tools we have, not replace them," he said. "A vaccine on its own will not end the pandemic."

"This is a global pandemic, this isn't a national epidemic, so you've got to stop the virus everywhere and, until you do, nowhere remains safe," says Prof Salisbury.

Suggestions that vaccines will be able to take us back to where we were pre-Covid by Easter have given people an unrealistic expectation, says Prof Salisbury, and such an outcome, in the absence of the interruption of transmission, is "unlikely".

Even countries with strong health infrastructure and experience of mass vaccination programmes - like the UK - will find reaching enough people to break the chain of transmission a challenge, he says.

While the outlook for at-risk groups will be "undoubtedly brighter" in 2021, Prof Salisbury says, the rest of us look likely to be taking extra measures for some time to come, something he refers to as "vaccine plus".


‘

 

[Poojah]

Interesting piece on the BBC website about how the vaccines developed will ot be the magic bullet many people are hoping they will be.

Why the vaccine will not mean a return to normality

.....but many scientists and global health experts are warning that vaccines, with limited initial supplies and roll-out to selected groups, although protecting vulnerable groups and front-line health workers, are unlikely to transport us back to our old way of living anytime soon.

Tedros Ghebreyesus, head of the WHO, has said as much himself.

"A vaccine will complement the other tools we have, not replace them," he said. "A vaccine on its own will not end the pandemic."

"This is a global pandemic, this isn't a national epidemic, so you've got to stop the virus everywhere and, until you do, nowhere remains safe," says Prof Salisbury.

Suggestions that vaccines will be able to take us back to where we were pre-Covid by Easter have given people an unrealistic expectation, says Prof Salisbury, and such an outcome, in the absence of the interruption of transmission, is "unlikely".

Even countries with strong health infrastructure and experience of mass vaccination programmes - like the UK - will find reaching enough people to break the chain of transmission a challenge, he says.

While the outlook for at-risk groups will be "undoubtedly brighter" in 2021, Prof Salisbury says, the rest of us look likely to be taking extra measures for some time to come, something he refers to as "vaccine plus".


‘

I read this yesterday and it felt to me like it was pre-meditated in its gloomy outlook. This is the key line, and in particular the words in bold.

Suggestions that vaccines will be able to take us back to where we were pre-Covid by Easter have given people an unrealistic expectation, says Prof Salisbury, and such an outcome, in the absence of the interruption of transmission, is "unlikely".

What we know is that we currently have vaccines which prevent serious illness in an overwhelming majority of people. This is good news, but as the article suggests, not sufficient in and of itself to get us quickly back to 'normal'. What we don't yet know is whether the vaccines help reduce transmission, and this is the going to be the key as to how quickly we get our lives back.

If it has zero effect on transmission, i.e. most people who get it do not become ill but can pass it on, then it's going to take a lot longer because the removal of social distancing would ensure that the prevalence of the virus would soar and a small but significant percentage of people would remain vulnerable to its effects.

However, if vaccines are proven to reduce transmission to a meaningful degree, then you rapidly push the down the R rate and the virus recedes into the fringes. In this instance, a smaller proportion of people are becoming ill at the same time fewer people are contracting Covid. In this scenario, I would imagine that a return to normal like in the UK would be practically a given within the first half of this year. Of course, as the article reminds us, Covid is a global problem and of course it's going to take large, developing countries like India considerably longer to get back online. However in terms of ditching social distancing rules, face coverings etc., the UK would be back on track rather quickly.

But which of these scenarios will turn out to be closest to the truth, science doesn't yet know. We will however find out the answer over the coming weeks, so keep your fingers and toes crossed. Until then, I'd take any correspondence which is either profoundly negative or mindlessly optimistic with a pinch of salt. It all rests on something we don't know yet.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Just a thought - what provisions are being made to vaccinate all the people who exist below the radar and don't appear on any lists - homeless people, undocumented immigrants, recluses etc - they all deserve to be vaccinated as well.