Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[Herr Tubthumper]

This is possibly a cross reference to Bozza's "will you go to the pub" thread but Stergoun has also said on distancing that "general advice will remain unchanged" and that "as far as possible" people should remain 2m away from other households.

But she said in view of the "serious economic implications" of maintaining the rule in all circumstances, she would allow "exemptions for specific sectors" where a 1m (3ft 3in) distance could be used if other safety measures are introduced.

So I expect the face mask thing is really just mitigating the risk of shops opening that cannot distance people at the 2m interval.

So. Back to pubs. Will they be 1m or 2m? Because the one thing you most surely cannot do in a pub is wear a face covering all the time. Ditto for restraunts. And even if they are setting distance at 2m the second pissed people who have not seen each other for weeks get outside the pub they will be staggering and hugging, guaranteed.

If I'm going to take a pop at Boris at all then it's Super Saturday that is the issue and not shops. We are reopening bars far too soon, despite seeing from Florida what will happen.

Is there a limit on the hours the pubs are initially open for?

 

[nicko31]

This is possibly a cross reference to Bozza's "will you go to the pub" thread but Stergoun has also said on distancing that "general advice will remain unchanged" and that "as far as possible" people should remain 2m away from other households.

But she said in view of the "serious economic implications" of maintaining the rule in all circumstances, she would allow "exemptions for specific sectors" where a 1m (3ft 3in) distance could be used if other safety measures are introduced.

So I expect the face mask thing is really just mitigating the risk of shops opening that cannot distance people at the 2m interval.

So. Back to pubs. Will they be 1m or 2m? Because the one thing you most surely cannot do in a pub is wear a face covering all the time. Ditto for restraunts. And even if they are setting distance at 2m the second pissed people who have not seen each other for weeks get outside the pub they will be staggering and hugging, guaranteed.

If I'm going to take a pop at Boris at all then it's Super Saturday that is the issue and not shops. We are reopening bars far too soon, despite seeing from Florida what will happen.

Who coined the phrase "Super Saturday", seems pretty irresponsible. Crazy pubs are opening, alcohol just makes people drop their guard, I'd keep them closed longer and give them more financial support.

 

[wehatepalace]

I don’t think the pub thing is going to be too terrible, most pubs are going to be very responsible as they are going to be jumped on by the authorities very quickly if they don’t.
A lot of the pubs local to me aren’t even opening for another couple of weeks and the ones that are, are insisting a table is booked with a 2 hour time slot, max groups of six and 4 pint per person max !
Can’t see the carnage that many are predicting.

 

[Postman Pat]

That might be the case, but a question was posed in this thread, and I responded to it, not knowing how to transport that response into another thread. I appreciate the rationale for this thread, but the fact that there have been two responses admonishing what is an accurate, simply stated reply to a question is somewhat odd. Should I just have ignored the question, or gave an alternative medicine-type response, because they seem like the only other available options.

Genuine question, how did we control MERS and SARS so successfully?

Please can you continue this conversation here and not on the good news thread.

Thanks!

 

[Machiavelli]

Please can you continue this conversation here and not on the good news thread.

Thanks!

Thanks for relocating

PS there's another of my posts in the Good News Thread that would benefit from finding it's way here. I'd be grateful if you could do so.

 

[Postman Pat]

Thanks for relocating

PS there's another of my posts in the Good News Thread that would benefit from finding it's way here. I'd be grateful if you could do so.

This one?

MERS and SARS are very different viruses to CV19. Both are more potent and this means that their reproduction rates are far lower than CV19.

They were far less infectious. The countries initially affected did a great job tracking and isolating people. Those diseases are also more deadly which can alter the speed with which the virus spreads, this also aided their control.

 

[wehatepalace]

[MENTION=28490]Machiavelli[/MENTION] [MENTION=4573]Green Cross Code Man[/MENTION]

Thanks, that makes sense now, I’ve seen lots of people likening this virus to both of those and suggesting as it’s the same type of virus, it’s possible it could go the same way, but you’ve both clarified it well, so it’s very unlikely it will.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I see Stanley Johnson is now ignoring the Government's Covid lockdown advice.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53266552

Coronavirus: PM's father Stanley Johnson criticised for lockdown trip to Greece

Probably needed to check his sinuses

 

[CheeseRolls]

Dreadful.

View attachment 125636

So what is the answer do you think?

 

[The Wizard]

So what is the answer do you think?

There is no answer, it’s too late now for many and that’s the horrendous thing isn’t it, for many of these people having a cancer undiagnosed or untreated between March and May is a death sentence. I’m not someone who believes lockdown shouldn’t have happened, but the true cost of lockdown with job losses, people dying at home, cancer deaths etc is making me question how many people are going to die as a knock on effect.

This must be happening all over the world as well.

 

[CheeseRolls]

There is no answer, it’s too late now for many and that’s the horrendous thing isn’t it, for many of these people having a cancer undiagnosed or untreated between March and May is a death sentence. I’m not someone who believes lockdown shouldn’t have happened, but the true cost of lockdown with job losses, people dying at home, cancer deaths etc is making me question how many people are going to die as a knock on effect.

This must be happening all over the world as well.

Sorry this isn't right, there is no direct relationship between lockdown and cancer treatment.

There IS a direct relationship between infection control and cancer treatment and here are four specific examples.

Fear of infection stops people coming forward with symptoms.
Capacity issues due to increased hospitalisation.
Capacity issues due to infection control around key equipment, such as scanners, people and places.
Routine checkups cancelled and delayed due to resourcing issues.

The impact of lockdown here is either neutral or positive, without it the impact on capacity would be greater.

 

[The Wizard]

Sorry this isn't right, there is no direct relationship between lockdown and cancer treatment.

There IS a direct relationship between infection control and cancer treatment and here are four specific examples.

Fear of infection stops people coming forward with symptoms.
Capacity issues due to increased hospitalisation.
Capacity issues due to infection control around key equipment, such as scanners, people and places.
Routine checkups cancelled and delayed due to resourcing issues.

The impact of lockdown here is either neutral or positive, without it the impact on capacity would be greater.

I’m confused by what you’re saying, how is there no direct relationship between cancer treatment and lockdown? A family member of mine had her treatment stopped because of the lockdown and her outlook isn’t looking fantastic now, so with all due respect that’s total and utter rubbish, a quick news search will find you loads of stories of people having treatments stopped.

Thousands of people all over the U.K. had life saving treatments for all kind of diseases and ailments cancelled or delayed which in turn will lead to thousands of other deaths. The ONS statistics for people dying at home, are still very high by normal standards at this time of year even now.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I’m confused by what you’re saying, how is there no direct relationship between cancer treatment and lockdown? A family member of mine had her treatment stopped because of the lockdown and her outlook isn’t looking fantastic now, so with all due respect that’s total and utter rubbish, a quick news search will find you loads of stories of people having treatments stopped.

Thousands of people all over the U.K. had life saving treatments for all kind of diseases and ailments cancelled or delayed which in turn will lead to thousands of other deaths. The ONS statistics for people dying at home, are still very high by normal standards at this time of year even now.

The point I am making is that treatment is impacted by infection control and not by lockdown. These are linked but not one and the same thing.

 

[beorhthelm]

The point I am making is that treatment is impacted by infection control and not by lockdown. These are linked but not one and the same thing.

lockdown is infection control. you cant separate them. unfortunately there are negative outcomes and consequences from lockdown, as your list above shows.

 

[CheeseRolls]

lockdown is infection control. you cant separate them. unfortunately there are negative outcomes and consequences from lockdown, as your list above shows.

Let me go through this in slow time

Fear of infection stops people coming forward with symptoms. - No if you are in fear of getting infected, it makes absolutely no difference what government policy says, you will do what you think is necessary to survive.

Capacity issues due to increased hospitalisation.

Capacity issues due to infection control around key equipment, such as scanners, people and places.


Routine checkups cancelled and delayed due to resourcing issues.

Again this makes no sense. Go sit in A&E on Saturday night and see how long you need to wait to be seen for a finger cut? Come in with a suspected heart attack or stroke and you will quickly jump the queue. Before anyone accuses me of being flippant about cancer, I am acutely aware of how the Royal Sussex cut their care back to only the most serious cases, relocated the department and switched to day patient care only. I doubt this is any different in Sweden or California, although they both may be better placed in terms of spare capacity. Cancer is a range of terrible diseases and anyone who has experienced this first hand or via a loved one, will understand, you would do ANYTHING to avoid putting someone through it. To that end we do a massive amount of early screening, the vast majority of which is negative, fortunately. The risk factors around age and health overlap with those most suseptible to Covid, which means it isn't a straightforward one or the other. There was nothing in lockdown policy that forbade you from travelling for medical appointments (ffs you could even go for a drive to test your eyesite). Infection control in hospitals is just not the same thing as lockdown, really it isn't.

There is a really odd argument developing here. It isn't necessary or binary and there is an obvious third way. It isn't a magic wand job or indeed free, but invest more in OUR healthcare and we will have more capacity to cope with the peaks. Cut things down to the bare minimum and you see what happens.

 

[beorhthelm]

i'll make it simple too: NHS shut down regular services, stopped admissions, cancelled treatments, GPs wouldnt see anyone. this as a result of lockdown. if we had twice the capacity they'd have done the same.

 

[Guinness Boy]

i'll make it simple too: NHS shut down regular services, stopped admissions, cancelled treatments, GPs wouldnt see anyone. this as a result of lockdown. if we had twice the capacity they'd have done the same.

Yep, I've got personal experience of this. Having had very mild Covid symptoms back in March I've now had a cough since April. I've talked to a Doctor twice. The first time I was recommended to call the surgery first thing the next morning by 111. When I called I could not hear the receptionist because the operator talking on the phone next to her was so loud. I called back, got the loud woman after 20 minutes and she immediately told me to use the online diagnoses tool and hung up. When I did - guess what - it flashed up red and told me to immediately call the surgery. Three calls. I got called back by a doctor who told me "I only had 5 minutes" and proscribed some antibiotics that didn't work, and that I couldn't collect because I was isolating. She also told me to call back if it had not gone in three weeks.

Three weeks after that I went through the same rigmarole with the same result, with the exception I was told to go to the Polyclinic for a chest x-ray. This came back "negative" (they didn't say for what but I'm assuming the Big C) but it took six weeks and two useless courses of antibiotics to get to a first stage check for cancer.

All I want to do is see a Doctor and talk this through and have them listen to my chest, but I can't because I've got a cough! At no stage, though, has ANYONE offered me a test. 111 told me not to bother as any Covid "would have gone ages ago".

The idea that this is down to capacity is ludicrous. It's down to people being excluded from face to face medical care when they have certain symptoms that are not serious enough (yet) for hospital.

I thought I was pretty unique but I recently read an article by Guardian writer Simon Hattinstone who has been through exactly the same thing, more or less.

 

[CheeseRolls]

i'll make it simple too: NHS shut down regular services, stopped admissions, cancelled treatments, GPs wouldnt see anyone. this as a result of lockdown. if we had twice the capacity they'd have done the same.

Personal experience - I had a CT scan in Worthing on 30th March. It was neither Covid or cancer related. I should have had a follow up meeting with a specialist. It was first scheduled for end of July and then downgraded to a GP Practice Nurse appointment, which still hasn't been scheduled ( I will survive). I had a close family member attend the cancer treatment centre in the Royal Sussex in April and May. It was a very scaled down service.It very much feels like infection control and capacity issues to me.

Alternative approach - I have been watching the Medcram Covid Updates on Youtube religiously. https://www.youtube.com/user/MEDCRAMvideos/featured Dr. Seheult who presents them is in Southern California and I think although not sure his hospital is in Orange County (see the US thread). He has gone into great detail around the infection control procedures they have put in place in the hospital and the steps he himself has taken as an ICU doctor, treating COVID patients. His routine is ridiculous, but needs to be, he is critical to patient care. All around him people in the community are carrying on as normal. No lockdown.

 

[beorhthelm]

Personal experience - I had a CT scan in Worthing on 30th March. It was neither Covid or cancer related. I should have had a follow up meeting with a specialist. It was first scheduled for end of July and then downgraded to a GP Practice Nurse appointment, which still hasn't been scheduled ( I will survive). I had a close family member attend the cancer treatment centre in the Royal Sussex in April and May. It was a very scaled down service.It very much feels like infection control and capacity issues to me.

Alternative approach - I have been watching the Medcram Covid Updates on Youtube religiously. https://www.youtube.com/user/MEDCRAMvideos/featured Dr. Seheult who presents them is in Southern California and I think although not sure his hospital is in Orange County (see the US thread). He has gone into great detail around the infection control procedures they have put in place in the hospital and the steps he himself has taken as an ICU doctor, treating COVID patients. His routine is ridiculous, but needs to be, he is critical to patient care. All around him people in the community are carrying on as normal. No lockdown.

so we can agree there is a correlation between lockdown and infection control procedure. the numbers of reduced attendance for treatment, and diagnosis of serious illness due to people not presenting themselves are very significant, with a lot adversely affected. i hope it works out well for you and all those that are still in need of treatment.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Edit: Was just being picky.