[Albion] List of players that have gone backwards under the current coach

[chaileyjem]

Fair point. Perhaps then the question mark is whether having a raw coach and a raw squad simultaneously is the best combination to achieve the club’s ambitions and attain the improvement in players to finance that. Maybe long term it is. The tricky part is keeping the squad together in the meantime and continuing to attract top players.

As Tony Bloom is generally a genius, I will ignore my nagging fear that it’s a step too far and trust he’s got it right, yet again.

Hurzeler has done well or or better (in the PL) so far, in his first season than Silva, Iraola, Glasner, Ange, and Amorin. And only a few points off Emery.

 

[chaileyjem]

Sure. We've had some good games and good runs. I'm suggesting we've underachieved, not that we've failed. There are a number of reasons for it, but to return to the point of the thread, one of them is having a tactical game that doesn't suit several players in our squad.

we've underachieved given the hindsight of knowing how the season has played out and where we were 4 weeks ago.
We're absolutely on track - i'd argue - if Hurzeler had objectives set back in August.

 

[1066familyman]

Putting aside the target of Europe this season or not debate, the thread was originally started to point out which players have gone backwards under the current coach.

I think it's quite telling that no one yet, as far as I recall, has added anyone to the original four player list. Also telling that no one has really argued much against the original list, except to point out that Estupinán was going backwards before FH even arrived!, and possibly Adingra was too.

So essentially that leaves just Dunk and Verbruggen as two players most likely to have gone backwards out of a squad of what, nearly 30 players?

That seems to me like a pretty weak stick to beat FH with.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

He was a poor defender last season too. Goes to ground in attempting to tackle, then their right wide-man is free on goal, almost every opponent.

Anyone got a clip of that attempted sliding tackle he put in 2nd half? If you watched the game, you know the one.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Putting aside the target of Europe this season or not debate, the thread was originally started to point out which players have gone backwards under the current coach.

I think it's quite telling that no one yet, as far as I recall, has added anyone to the original four player list. Also telling that no one has really argued much against the original list, except to point out that Estupinán was going backwards before FH even arrived!, and possibly Adingra was too.

So essentially that leaves just Dunk and Verbruggen as two players most likely to have gone backwards out of a squad of what, nearly 30 players?

That seems to me like a pretty weak stick to beat FH with.

Enciso, barely played and loaned out to relegation certainties. Will probably be off in the summer and not for what Tony's data might have planned for originally either. Won't matter too much though as we have more than enough strength to cover that position. Estupinian has continued to get worse this season, Saturday was comical.

 

[JBizzle]

We spent £25m on a new full back last summer . And In the summer of 2023 - we spent £20m on a new centre back. Wieffer and Baleba weren't cheap and have looked fine in the back four in the last few games.
All of Lamptey, Hinshelwood, Dunk, JPVH, Webster, Igor, Esupinan, Kadioglu, Milner, March, Wieffer, Veltman have been absent for periods this season which hasn't helped and harsh to argue it should have been foreseen.

I can always rely on you to take my flippant comments out of context and reply dead seriously. I'm aware of all the above and have made the point a thousand times on here that injuries have killed our defence this season, it's more that we have actively tried to sign CBs in the summer (Boscagli, Cashin and the lad who went to City) and didn't.

 

[1066familyman]

Enciso, barely played and loaned out to relegation certainties. Will probably be off in the summer and not for what Tony's data might have planned for originally either. Won't matter too much though as we have more than enough strength to cover that position. Estupinian has continued to get worse this season, Saturday was comical.

Ok, so now you've added a fifth player to the list.

Another player that wasn't firing on all cylinders when FH arrived, due to long term injury previously, and God knows what else if the NSC thread on him is to be believed

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Putting aside the target of Europe this season or not debate, the thread was originally started to point out which players have gone backwards under the current coach.

I think it's quite telling that no one yet, as far as I recall, has added anyone to the original four player list. Also telling that no one has really argued much against the original list, except to point out that Estupinán was going backwards before FH even arrived!, and possibly Adingra was too.

So essentially that leaves just Dunk and Verbruggen as two players most likely to have gone backwards out of a squad of what, nearly 30 players?

That seems to me like a pretty weak stick to beat FH with.

I have said it before.... Fab is a bit weird and like Potter (but less so) he brings out the bully in some of us.
If he was a 'man's man' in the manner of Terry Venables nobody would be carping.
Last season, with RDZ starting mad line-ups and tanking the season, the criticism was:
"not getting transfer backing; he's more ambitious than the club; he will quit" - it being we who were not worthy of the great man.
There was some criticism of him, but nothing like the absolute rogering given by quite a few to Fab.

I am a sucker for an alpha male leader so I also 'feel' a sneer coming on when I see Fab's squirrel, and hear his 'process with the guys' chat.
But......I can accept that I'm being a tit, letting my brainstem exercise its survival prejudices,
which are based on backing the ruthless option.
If the cavemen from the next village were to raid, and whisk Fab off into the night, I would probably just tut.

 

[1066familyman]

I have said it before.... Fab is a bit weird and like Potter (but less so) he brings out the bully in some of us.
If he was a 'man's man' in the manner of Terry Venables nobody would be carping.
Last season, with RDZ starting mad line-ups and tanking the season, the criticism was:
"not getting transfer backing; he's more ambitious than the club; he will quit" - it being we who were not worthy of the great man.
There was some criticism of him, but nothing like the absolute rogering given by quite a few to Fab.

I am a sucker for an alpha male leader so I also 'feel' a sneer coming on when I see Fab's squirrel, and hear his 'process with the guys' chat.
But......I can accept that I'm being a tit, letting my brainstem exercise its survival prejudices,
which are based on backing the ruthless option.
If the cavemen from the next village were to raid, and whisk Fab off into the night, I would probably just tut.

A shit haircut and being German can't be helping much either, that's for sure.

It's almost as if being ginger, Welsh and filmed falling over on a beach can lose you a general election.

Would never happen in Germany, surely?

 

[Weststander]

Anyone got a clip of that attempted sliding tackle he put in 2nd half? If you watched the game, you know the one.

Could it be in here?


00:30 lazy, ball watching
1:14 comatose
1:35 wtf at the touchline, then lazy

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

So how are tactics that constantly put our defence under pressure supposed to help these players to recover?

We might as well have not had a left hand side on Saturday until the substitutions. Any decent opposition coach would have started with Fullkrug or at least put him on after about 20 minutes and set Bowen loose down the right. Luckily it was Potter, but when he finally swallowed his stubbornness they scored within a few minutes.

We could possibly get into Europe still this season. We could possibly get our second highest ever number of points and position. But this season is almost unique and there'll still be a feeling we've underachieved thanks to basic errors in a lot of games leaving points on the table. It started with a summer window where most clubs had to rein in spending or do dodgy deals with each other but we could spend the PSR headroom we'd accumulated. Then we've had a season where three of the big six have imploded and none, bar Liverpool, have impressed. As a result Newcastle have won a major trophy, Palace might and Forest will probably get into the Champions League.

I fully accept we're never going to compete with Liverpool, City, Arsenal et al but we should surely be competing with Palace and Forest? Next season one of Spurs or United will find their way back into the top ten, City could be back to being City and we'll probably still have the Bournemouth, Fulham, Villa and Palaces of this world snipping at our heals. We've missed out in the most open season for major trophies and CL places there'll be in a generation, thanks to being absolutely awful at the back unless Veltman's fit.

All valid points. Such a strange season for the league in general and a glaring opportunity to fill the void usually occupied by the traditional big clubs (also a year with three of the worst promoted sides in PL history). On the flipside, it's been great for ourselves, Fulham, Bournemouth and Brentford to be those stubborn, mid-table decent teams who are fighting for Europe (the battle for 8th! ...Dun... dun... daaaarrghh).

Next season will be so much tougher. I think you can also add a very fiesty and decent, dirty Leeds into the mix for mid/upper-mid table. Burnley might have a nice bounce and Everton may also be more resurgent in their new home. Surely Spuds and ManU will improve?

The PL doesn't get any easier, but yes, this year was a freak year. Despite what is looking like a historically excellent final, top flight points tally for us, there is still that nagging feeling it is a huge opportunity missed – through of a combo of shooting ourselves in the foot (tactical naivety), bad luck (injuries) and daft game management – plus of a cocktail of inexperience. I just hope the freak year doesn't end with that lot up the road winning the FA Cup – because then they, not us, would have taken advantage of it.

*Note. I realise my post has absolutely nothing to do with the original thread question.

 

[chaileyjem]

is it a unique , freak year ?
We've now been 9th, 6th, 11th and likely 11-8th in the last four seasons. Seems like a normal year .
Forest are the outliers but even with them - their wage bill is 20% higher than us and no surprise whatsoever we're behind Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, Newcastle and Man City given their wage bills, squads etc.
And even Forest look likely to finish 6th or perhaps 7th - and have a FA Cup semi final. Sound familiar ?

(Its annoying Palace are in a cup final again - but we would have had City in the semi final if we'd not missed those pens v Forest. )

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

is it a unique , freak year ?
We've now been 9th, 6th, 11th and likely 11-8th in the last four seasons. Seems like a normal year .
Forest are the outliers but even with them - their wage bill is 20% higher than us and no surprise whatsoever we're behind Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, Newcastle and Man City given their wage bills, squads etc.
And even Forest look likely to finish 6th and have a FA Cup semi final. Sound familiar ?

(Its annoying Palace are in a cup final again - but we would have had City in the semi final if we'd not missed those pens v Forest. )

I sort of agree with you

There are a few teams who have unperformed. A few who have overperformed.

I'm not convinced Man Utd and Spurs are straight back to the European places next season. I'm even less convinced there won't be another couple of surprising underperformers, who's place we can be taking aim at

 

[boik]

Bloom said this in November
"
We are delighted with Fabian’s start and we don’t want [Europe] to be a one-off.
“We have huge ambitions as a club to carry on.
“We know how tough it is. The Premier League is by far and away the toughest league in the world.
“To get in those European spots was really difficult but we have big ambitions."

It's the old "ambition" vs "expectation " again. There's a crucial difference.

 

[Balders]

Bloom said this in November
"
We are delighted with Fabian’s start and we don’t want [Europe] to be a one-off.
“We have huge ambitions as a club to carry on.
“We know how tough it is. The Premier League is by far and away the toughest league in the world.
“To get in those European spots was really difficult but we have big ambitions."

That's from the Club's Official Accounts filed with Companies House early in March this year. Depends how you define "stretch goal"

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

is it a unique , freak year ?
We've now been 9th, 6th, 11th and likely 11-8th in the last four seasons. Seems like a normal year .
Forest are the outliers but even with them - their wage bill is 20% higher than us and no surprise whatsoever we're behind Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, Newcastle and Man City given their wage bills, squads etc.
And even Forest look likely to finish 6th or perhaps 7th - and have a FA Cup semi final. Sound familiar ?

(Its annoying Palace are in a cup final again - but we would have had City in the semi final if we'd not missed those pens v Forest. )

Yes. I'd say it was a very freakish year to have the title and relegation race kind of sorted by January/early Feb. The original comment was more about the league in general, not our league position – which as you say is looking quite comfortably consistent over the past four years. The bottom three this year (apart from when we've played them haha) have not really punched above their weight and nicked many points off those above. If there'd been a couple of plucky newcomers this season then we may have seen both West Ham and Spurs go down this year.. which would have been fun. That's quite an unusual scenario we haven't seen for a while.

 

[London Irish]

is it a unique , freak year ?
We've now been 9th, 6th, 11th and likely 11-8th in the last four seasons. Seems like a normal year .
Forest are the outliers but even with them - their wage bill is 20% higher than us and no surprise whatsoever we're behind Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, Newcastle and Man City given their wage bills, squads etc.
And even Forest look likely to finish 6th or perhaps 7th - and have a FA Cup semi final. Sound familiar ?

(Its annoying Palace are in a cup final again - but we would have had City in the semi final if we'd not missed those pens v Forest. )

Spending a quarter of a billion pounds is definitely not a normal year for the Albion

 

[dazzer6666]

Putting aside the target of Europe this season or not debate, the thread was originally started to point out which players have gone backwards under the current coach.

I think it's quite telling that no one yet, as far as I recall, has added anyone to the original four player list. Also telling that no one has really argued much against the original list, except to point out that Estupinán was going backwards before FH even arrived!, and possibly Adingra was too.

So essentially that leaves just Dunk and Verbruggen as two players most likely to have gone backwards out of a squad of what, nearly 30 players?

That seems to me like a pretty weak stick to beat FH with.

Dunk is ageing and has ben hampered by injuries and Verbruggen is just going through the ups and downs of development for a young player…….

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yes. I'd say it was a very freakish year to have the title and relegation race kind of sorted by January/early Feb. The original comment was more about the league in general, not our league position – which as you say is looking quite comfortably consistent over the past four years. The bottom three this year (apart from when we we've played them haha) have not really punched above their weight and nicked many points off those above. If there'd been a couple of plucky newcomers this season then we may have seen both West Ham and Spurs go down this year.. which would have been fun. That's quite an unusual scenario we haven't seen for a while.

Yep, relegation and title decided ages ago. The fine margins are in the battle for Europe with 2 points between 3rd and 6th and one point between 10th and 8th. Man U and Spurs having history defining (as in bad) PL seasons. City have lost the same number of games as us. FA Cup semi-finalists of Villa, Palace, Forest and City. Newcastle winning their first trophy for so long that the entire city turned out to celebrate a League Cup.

It's those seasons where leaving a point or two on the table or having a bad 15 mins in a cup game can make a huge amount of difference. Next season will see normal service resuming with stronger sides coming up from the Championship, City rebuilding (although at risk of a massive points deduction), Spurs likely to get rid of Ange and Man U will have a massive clear out.

 

[chaileyjem]

Next season will see normal service resuming with stronger sides coming up from the Championship, City rebuilding (although at risk of a massive points deduction), Spurs likely to get rid of Ange and Man U will have a massive clear out.

Is normal service the richest clubs in the PL getting champions league, winning the league and getting into Europe ?
(like this year ? )