[Politics] Lib Dem leadership contest.

[BadFish]

This ^

I always maintained that even though Corbyn was an incompetent and unappealing leader, many of his policies would be considered mainstream centre-Left in much of Europe - some nationalisation, slightly higher tax on the rich, and a couple of workers on the boards of companies to have a small say in the decisions (which affect them) and improve democracy in the workplace.

Germany has a state-owned railway and worker-directors, for example, yet their leader, Merkel, is a Conservative (Christian Democrat).

The fact that these policies were portrayed as Communist in Britain shows have far to the Right we have moved, certainly on economic issues. It also shows just how powerful much of the press is in defining what is 'acceptable' or 'extremist': the extent to which so many people take their political cues and views from rabidly pro-Conservative papers like the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Sun, Daily Telegraph, and The Times is astonishing and depressing - and then (without any irony) they'll complain about Left-wing bias in the media and people being indoctrinated or brainwashed!

Most of our national newspapers are owned by billionaire business-men who are naturally hostile to any form of socialism, and so they convince their readers that any policies to tackle poverty, clamp-down on corporate tax-dodging, stop the selling-off of public services to private firms (who are often donors to the Conservative party), tackle homelessness and unaffordable housing, and slightly improve workers' rights or democracy in the workplace, are the work of the Devil, and will turn us into a basket-case like North Korea.

... and they do all this while convincing their readers that 'the media' is biased toward the left.

We all lap it up.

 

[Guinness Boy]

That's a bit contradictory. If the electorate is apathetic about a centrist party, then they're not likely to "clean up"

We don't have a population that's apathetic about voting - we have a pretty healthy turnout for elections - but they're not very interested in centrist parties

The problem is everything is binary these days and that's the fault of Zuckerberg. There's a special place in hell already waiting for that back to front. And a lot of it isn't traditional economic left v right, it's social liberalism versus conservatism with a small "c". "Woke" v Reactionary. But mostly Remain v Leave. This is an issue for the centre already, but there are further barriers.

One of those is the competing nature of the "progressive" parties. It used to be the Lib Dems competed with the Tories for seats but Brexit has ruined that. Now the Lib Dems compete in the same space as Labour and the Greens for a lot of the socially liberal, Remain vote (and the SNP in Scotland). Meanwhile the Tories are out on their own and have become the new Brexit Party with the Brexit Pary either ceding to them or becoming the new National Front.

Secondly, for all that "woke" youngsters moan on social media, none of them actually seem to vote. They're allowing a socially conservative clique who won't be around to see the worst of their damage inflicted dictate their lives because, apparently, it's easier and better to get likes on Insta than actually go out and vote.

The light at the end of the tunnel isn't the Lib Dems though. They are now totally irrelevant. Brexit will happen and that is that - there's no more debate to be had on it. Attention can turn to how bad the recession is, is CV-19 still around and what's our plan / deathtoll as well as proper old fashioned party politics. And here Labour holds the aces. The policies of Corbyn really haven't changed that much and (as [MENTION=2318]Peteinblack[/MENTION] correctly states) were never actually extreme socialism anyway. But they are now being presented by a media savvy centerist leader who is far more acceptable all round than Corbyn ever was. There are a few far left cliques and noisy anti-semitic social media users to damp down and then we should have Labour v Tory back as the binary option instead of what type of milk you drink or whether you believe needing a visa to visit Luxembourg is a good idea.

 

[Grombleton]

A no dickheads policy.

Barber & Bloom for joint leader!

 

[Monkey Man]

A decent centrist party would clean up in the country, exactly what we all need.

The fact we have nothing even remotely viable says more about the lazy apathetic population and the general state of politics, which has caused the apathetic attitude.

the sooner the big two parties whither and die the better, dinosours are not the way forward.

I think most of us naturally gravitate to the centre ground, but our electoral system will never make it likely that the Lib Dems (or a replacement middle ground party) would gain much traction in terms of seats.

The best we can hope for is a moderate Tory or Labour government, without the leadership of either one being derailed by the more extreme factions within their respective parties.

I get frustrated when I hear kids (like my wife's 19-year-old niece, only yesterday) say they don't bother to vote. But when you look at our voting system in this country, and what it tends to produce, you can almost empathise with their lack of interest.

 

[Fungus]

That doesn't wash. Tthey had a head start on Labour, whose leader didn't resign till nearly a month later. And yet Labour managed to run a far bigger election in just three months, despite the pandemic,

Lack of obvious candidates, I expect. I'd also expect it to be feasible to run secure online elections at the highest level in this day and age. No real excuse for cancellations.

 

[zefarelly]

I think most of us naturally gravitate to the centre ground, but our electoral system will never make it likely that the Lib Dems (or a replacement middle ground party) would gain much traction in terms of seats.

The best we can hope for is a moderate Tory or Labour government, without the leadership of either one being derailed by the more extreme factions within their respective parties.

I get frustrated when I hear kids (like my wife's 19-year-old niece, only yesterday) say they don't bother to vote. But when you look at our voting system in this country, and what it tends to produce, you can almost empathise with their lack of interest.

Add to that as soon as anyone comes along to interest or awaken the youinger vote, they get shot down in flames by the establishment and the press. Dictatorship a go-go

 

[blue-shifted]

I think most of us naturally gravitate to the centre ground, but our electoral system will never make it likely that the Lib Dems (or a replacement middle ground party) would gain much traction in terms of seats.

The best we can hope for is a moderate Tory or Labour government, without the leadership of either one being derailed by the more extreme factions within their respective parties.

I get frustrated when I hear kids (like my wife's 19-year-old niece, only yesterday) say they don't bother to vote. But when you look at our voting system in this country, and what it tends to produce, you can almost empathise with their lack of interest.

Kidnap her. Basically, next election day, frog march her into your car and drive her to the polling booth and back. One day, she'll thank you

 

[Lenny Rider]

a lot like the labour party without the unions, and some more practicable business sense.

A tinsy bit like the conservatives but with some compassion and without the dodgy ***** crooks and devious slef interests. ( those last bits kind of wipes most of them out )

a bit like the green party but with something realistically feasible.

priority on the UK, (persoanlly prefereably the EU too) non war mongering for money/oil, nationalisation of core utilities and infrastructure. guarantees and improvements as a priority for NHS, Education, and the environment. Concerted investment in national industry and manufacturing.

Taxation reforms particularly at the higher levels. If the likes of amazon/paypal/starbucks all offshore, kick em off shore permanently, no one needs them.

A no dickheads policy.

I'd quite like...…

A fair tax system

A fair immigration system

A fair benefits system

Significant and sustained investment in the inner cities for youngsters.

A Police force, which is exactly that, a Force.

Referendum on the return of capital punishment for specified crimes, ie terrorists, Child/Police killers, extreme paedophiles.

Provide a specified minimum standard of living for all pensioners in the UK.

I think that ticks the boxes for the silent majority.

 

[Gwylan]

The problem is everything is binary these days and that's the fault of Zuckerberg. There's a special place in hell already waiting for that back to front. And a lot of it isn't traditional economic left v right, it's social liberalism versus conservatism with a small "c". "Woke" v Reactionary. But mostly Remain v Leave. This is an issue for the centre already, but there are further barriers.

One of those is the competing nature of the "progressive" parties. It used to be the Lib Dems competed with the Tories for seats but Brexit has ruined that. Now the Lib Dems compete in the same space as Labour and the Greens for a lot of the socially liberal, Remain vote (and the SNP in Scotland). Meanwhile the Tories are out on their own and have become the new Brexit Party with the Brexit Pary either ceding to them or becoming the new National Front.

Secondly, for all that "woke" youngsters moan on social media, none of them actually seem to vote. They're allowing a socially conservative clique who won't be around to see the worst of their damage inflicted dictate their lives because, apparently, it's easier and better to get likes on Insta than actually go out and vote.

The light at the end of the tunnel isn't the Lib Dems though. They are now totally irrelevant. Brexit will happen and that is that - there's no more debate to be had on it. Attention can turn to how bad the recession is, is CV-19 still around and what's our plan / deathtoll as well as proper old fashioned party politics. And here Labour holds the aces. The policies of Corbyn really haven't changed that much and (as [MENTION=2318]Peteinblack[/MENTION] correctly states) were never actually extreme socialism anyway. But they are now being presented by a media savvy centerist leader who is far more acceptable all round than Corbyn ever was. There are a few far left cliques and noisy anti-semitic social media users to damp down and then we should have Labour v Tory back as the binary option instead of what type of milk you drink or whether you believe needing a visa to visit Luxembourg is a good idea.

A lot of it is binary because of FPTP too - although when there is PR, Liberals don't do particularly well either.

But you're right that Brexit changed everything. Not only were Lab, Lib and Greens (and the SNP and PC) competing for the same vote but the Brexit party dropped out in Tory seats. So, the Remain vote was split but Leave voters had just one party.

And you're also right that the young don't vote, which really distorts the vote. The over-50s are the ones who elect governments which gives us a very distorted views of priorities. This is why we have a triple-lock on pensions, free bus passes for pensioners while 25 year olds struggle with student debt and zero hour contracts (this also explains why it's total bollocks that Caroline Lucas is elected on the student vote).

My belief is that Starmer and the new LD leader will come to an arrangement at the next election - I can't see any other option for them - and introduce PR. But there's a long way to go until then. But it would greatly help if they could get the under-30s voting in larger numbers

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I think most of us naturally gravitate to the centre ground, but our electoral system will never make it likely that the Lib Dems (or a replacement middle ground party) would gain much traction in terms of seats.

The best we can hope for is a moderate Tory or Labour government, without the leadership of either one being derailed by the more extreme factions within their respective parties.

I get frustrated when I hear kids (like my wife's 19-year-old niece, only yesterday) say they don't bother to vote. But when you look at our voting system in this country, and what it tends to produce, you can almost empathise with their lack of interest.

I have seen lots of murmurings, even from Labour voters about the FPTP voting. Unfortunately the horrible mixed up version of Proportional Representation referendum didn't succeed before but maybe it can be revived so we never get this 80 seat majority for less than 46% of the vote again. There's no accountability.

 

[blue-shifted]

Ed Davey wins

 

[Baker lite]

Ed Davey wins

And instantly demands another vote..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Gwylan]

I'd quite like...…


Referendum on the return of capital punishment for specified crimes, ie terrorists, Child/Police killers, extreme paedophiles.

I think you may have a vested interest in that one ...


Capital punishment will never be brought back in this country, certainly not in my lifetime. All opinion polls are against its return

And your idea of a police "force" is a completely non-starter too - people are over-whelmingly against arming the police.

You'd get 100% support for a 'fair' tax system yet ask a hundred people what that means and you'd get a hundred different answers

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The over-50s are the ones who elect governments which gives us a very distorted views of priorities. This is why we have a triple-lock on pensions, free bus passes for pensioners while 25 year olds struggle with student debt and zero hour contracts (this also explains why it's total bollocks that Caroline Lucas is elected on the student vote).

If IDS gets his way, the pension age will rise to 75, and the triple lock is already under threat. Lots of whinges coming from the over 75s about the tv licence, so maybe the tide is turning with the older generation?

 

[blue-shifted]

I'd quite like...…

A fair tax system

A fair immigration system

A fair benefits system

Significant and sustained investment in the inner cities for youngsters.

A Police force, which is exactly that, a Force.

Referendum on the return of capital punishment for specified crimes, ie terrorists, Child/Police killers, extreme paedophiles.

Provide a specified minimum standard of living for all pensioners in the UK.

I think that ticks the boxes for the silent majority.

Fair isn't a universally agreed concept though is it. For immigration, your idea of fair might depend on whether you are the immigrant or a tax payer in the country in question. Tax also. Every one thinks tax should be fairer, it's an easy thing to say, but what they often mean, and I'm not accusing you of this Lenny, is that they want other people to pay more.

 

[Baker lite]

https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1109939698431115265?s=20

He’s got a few moves, I’ll give him that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'd quite like...…

A fair tax system

Wouldn't we all?

A fair immigration system

A fair benefits system

Define "Fair"

Provide a specified minimum standard of living for all pensioners in the UK.

More than one way to skin a cat here. Post covid the biggest losers are likely to be youngsters who are suddenly competing for the same jobs as people with more experience, and seeing recruitment freezes and businesses collapsing in the service and gig economy. The more young people earn, the more tax comes into the system and the easier it is to raise the state pension for the most needy of the elderly.

 

[Normal Rob]

Love that the Lib Dem (ex) spin doctor just described Layla Moran as being someone who, in the future, could 'roam across a wide variety of briefs'. A bit like she does in her private life really

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

a lot like the labour party without the unions, and some more practicable business sense.

A tinsy bit like the conservatives but with some compassion and without the dodgy ***** crooks and devious slef interests. ( those last bits kind of wipes most of them out )

a bit like the green party but with something realistically feasible.

priority on the UK, (persoanlly prefereably the EU too) non war mongering for money/oil, nationalisation of core utilities and infrastructure. guarantees and improvements as a priority for NHS, Education, and the environment. Concerted investment in national industry and manufacturing.

Taxation reforms particularly at the higher levels. If the likes of amazon/paypal/starbucks all offshore, kick em off shore permanently, no one needs them.

A no dickheads policy.

Agree with pretty much all of that.

Labour still seen as the 'I want something for nothing party' and 'let the state look after me party' and the party of uncontrolled immigration'

This current Tort Govt. seen as looking after big business and being generally completely incompetent.

Lib Dems still seen as ultra pro EU/ Euro, sandal wearing, muesli eating tree huggers who jumped into bed with the Tories to get some semblance of power at the first opportunity.


What a terrible,terrible choice we currently have.

I disagree with Gwylan about a 'centrist Party - I feel that if we had one then they'd clean up - I'd certainly vote for them.

 

[blue-shifted]

Agree with pretty much all of that.

Labour still seen as the 'I want something for nothing party' and 'let the state look after me party' and the party of uncontrolled immigration'

This current Tort Govt. seen as looking after big business and being generally completely incompetent.

Lib Dems still seen as ultra pro EU/ Euro, sandal wearing, muesli eating tree huggers who jumped into bed with the Tories to get some semblance of power at the first opportunity.


What a terrible,terrible choice we currently have.

I disagree with Gwylan about a 'centrist Party - I feel that if we had one then they'd clean up - I'd certainly vote for them.

Change UK certainly did well