Legal Advice Required (Home refurbishment is the issue)

[hitony]

I am doing a very extensive refurb,well in excess of £400k - the client (home owner) choose Karndean flooring for the master bedroom en-suite and the guest bathroom, he also requested that we fit the very expensive shower trays in both rooms as low as possible, to create a walk in shower effect, this we did, we allowed for self leveler and 3mm Ply then of course the Karndean.

Our flooring contractor stated that Karndean is not suitable for a wet room floor, this is correct albeit neither rooms are wet rooms, but because the shower trays have been set to a level to create no upstand, on both shower trays where you enter the shower will be level to the finish floor.

The Architect is now saying they want a tiled floor, this will mean us taking up the trays and raising them to accept tiles (I'm not going to go into great detail on this as its just not worth it, but trust me if we leveled the floor and fitted a decent floor tile the edge of the tile WILL be higher than the tray which is not acceptable)

We installed these trays to stay in place, my honest feeling is that to try and remove them they will break / crack etc, both these trays are very expensive trays, my plumber who is extremely experienced told me that if we try and take them up they will highly likely crack etc.

Right, thats a brief background of the situation, what I would like to know is:
1) The client chose the flooring product, is it his responsibility to check its fit for purpose?
2) should the architect have checked its suitability - fit for purpose?
3) should I have checked if its fit for purpose? I have karndean in my bathroom, we have lived here 11 years never had a problem, go on the karndean website it shows many photos of it being in bathrooms BUT it does state not to be used in a wet room.

The client did ask for the level to be set as low as possible, in fact congratulated me on succeeding in doing so, of course this was prior to the contractor sticking his opinion in.

I really do need to know on items 1,2 and 3 above, the installation etc and brief background I have given is to try and give the reader an idea as to whats gone on.

Any solicitors or knowledgeable replies are very welcome, I appreciate we have some plumbers on here, I don't really want to go into the installation of it too much unless its relevant.

Thanks in advance

 

[chimneys]

What does the agreed spec say?And what kind of contract did you sign up to?JCT Minor Works?

 

[hitony]

What does the agreed spec say?And what kind of contract did you sign up to?JCT Minor Works?

The agreed spec states "Karndean and the type / colour" ........Yes JCT Minor works

 

[Chicken Run]

Do what the client asked for and get him to sign saying he instructed you!

 

[hitony]

I removed the shower tray product name as it made this thread view able via Google.

 

[hitony]

Do want the client asked for and get him to sign saying he instructed you!

He wont sign anything, he is doing everything via his architect, he is also a very rich business man, we had a site meeting on Tuesday (normal monthly meeting) it is like going into a high powered board meeting each time! I've been involved in building management for 33 years and this guy is the worst I have ever come across! wish I had never got involved in it to be honest, everyday is a nightmare, this issue is just one of many! but the others I have managed to sort, this one is potentially a very costly one, for someone!

 

[chimneys]

Was the low level of shower tray documented in spec?

In any event, as it's not d&b it seems you were merely following orders and reckon an adjudicator would find likewise.

No one wants to get contractual but looks like you might have to on this one. Presume job is virtually finished?

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Architect will have to be assassinated...
(Not a legal expert,but here's my thoughts)
Point 1-for me it's a no.
Point 2-yes in this case,still no.
Point 3-always communicate with the man at the coal face-Mr Plummer.

All joking aside,if you do as instructed what's the problem?

I assume (perhaps wrongly) it's a profit thing.

 

[hitony]

Was the low level of shower tray documented in spec?

In any event, as it's not d&b it seems you were merely following orders and reckon an adjudicator would find likewise.

No one wants to get contractual but looks like you might have to on this one. Presume job is virtually finished?

No it was not specified in the spec, just a verbal request ............Yes it will get contractual..........i wished the job was close to finishing! it really is one step forward and two back, this week has been a total nightmare!.......I have given a completion date of 7th April but this flooring / shower issue has cost me 3 weeks of time, so I have put in for extension etc

 

[hitony]

Architect will have to be assassinated...
(Not a legal expert,but here's my thoughts)
Point 1-for me it's a no.
Point 2-yes in this case,still no.
Point 3-always communicate with the man at the coal face-Mr Plummer.

All joking aside,if you do as instructed what's the problem?

I assume (perhaps wrongly) it's a profit thing.

I appreciate anyone's comments, I don't just expect all solicitors to come forward ........without going into all the past of this job, its not a profit thing anymore, this is a potential costly issue though, that aside this is one of many many issues the client / architect has come up with, with most I have treated it as "he is the customer so lets try to please etc" that attitude has now completely gone! it is now an extremely bad marriage!

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

I appreciate anyone's comments, I don't just expect all solicitors to come forward ........without going into all the past of this job, its not a profit thing anymore, this is a potential costly issue though, that aside this is one of many many issues the client / architect has come up with, with most I have treated it as "he is the customer so lets try to please etc" that attitude has now completely gone! it is now an extremely bad marriage!

Sounds like you have your work cut out,i assume this is the normal thing that can happen (client/customer request ) perhaps has happened more in this than in most other jobs.

 

[hitony]

Sounds like you have your work cut out,i assume this is the normal thing that can happen (client/customer request ) perhaps has happened more in this than in most other jobs.

With this sort of project, it is far from unusual for the client to either change their mind or have a second thought about things, I accept that, as the project goes on they see things in a different perspective, I certainly am not the type of person to walk around with a contract in my hand all the time, so we try to accommodate and please, this issue has gone one step to far though........I have felt since before xmas it was leading to something like this, so this situation happening has far from surprised me.

In my head i am fully expecting to take out both trays, no doubt have to replace them at our cost and refit etc to suit the newly tiled floor, all i will say is, up to now all the "Extras" that have been done have been priced and completed on an extremely fair and sensible price, if what happens as I think it will with this shower tray issue, all future extras will be priced accordingly (and I know for a fact there are quite a few more extra items to come) I wont walk away from it, I will complete the project whatever happens, whilst "well in excess of £400k" sounds good, profit wise it is not, some you win some you lose i guess when its finished i will post some photos on here in fairness it is starting to look awesome, it was a 200+ year old cottage with a 1972 house built on to it as an extension, it is massive, it really will be lovely when completed.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

With this sort of project, it is far from unusual for the client to either change their mind or have a second thought about things, I accept that, as the project goes on they see things in a different perspective, I certainly am not the type of person to walk around with a contract in my hand all the time, so we try to accommodate and please, this issue has gone one step to far though........I have felt since before xmas it was leading to something like this, so this situation happening has far from surprised me.

In my head i am fully expecting to take out both trays, no doubt have to replace them at our cost and refit etc to suit the newly tiled floor, all i will say is, up to now all the "Extras" that have been done have been priced and completed on an extremely fair and sensible price, if what happens as I think it will with this shower tray issue, all future extras will be priced accordingly (and I know for a fact there are quite a few more extra items to come) I wont walk away from it, I will complete the project whatever happens, whilst "well in excess of £400k" sounds good, profit wise it is not, some you win some you lose i guess when its finished i will post some photos on here in fairness it is starting to look awesome, it was a 200+ year old cottage with a 1972 house built on to it as an extension, it is massive, it really will be lovely when completed.

The pics would be good,i'm a delivery driver and occasionally go to all numerous addresses,meet the trades,suppliers etc among others,i know what some of these "types" are like,they can be a nightmare (for me never mind anything else) & especially for the guys doing the work like your good self.....

 

[Chicken Run]

He wont sign anything, he is doing everything via his architect, he is also a very rich business man, we had a site meeting on Tuesday (normal monthly meeting) it is like going into a high powered board meeting each time! I've been involved in building management for 33 years and this guy is the worst I have ever come across! wish I had never got involved in it to be honest, everyday is a nightmare, this issue is just one of many! but the others I have managed to sort, this one is potentially a very costly one, for someone!

I know the type and no doubt you offered the most "competitive" quote? You wonder on contracts like these what other business you could be doing instead of all the hassle this guy is giving, I've always thought several easy to manage contracts are better than all in so to speak!

 

[Shinbreath]

Tricky, tricky, tricky !!

I myself and am a building contractor and these are one of these horrible "grey area" situations which normally mean the guy holding the money, in this case the client, usually wins and the one at the bottom of the pile, usually the building contractor, has to swallow the situation. (Not what you want to hear, I know...)

In answer to your questions above:

1) No, I don't believe the client has a responsibility to check if a product is fit for purpose. To an extent, you have to assume that the client has very little or no knowledge of building products and their suitability. They can ask for whatever they want but it is down to the people they hire, (the architect or builder), to tell them wether it will work for their specific needs. After all, they are the experts.

2) If, as you have said above, everything is going through the architect then absolutely 100% yes. The architect certainly has a responsibility to check if a certain product is suitable for a particular application. They are the designer after all and given the architect is still in the picture they still have a responsibility of making sure the project runs correctly.

You said above that the Karndean is specified in the spec. Is this a spec that has been produced by the architect or the client?
Did this change request of dropping the shower trays go through the architect wether verbal or not?
If yes to both of the above then the architect has certainly overlooked something here and should be held to some account as ultimately, he is the designer.

3) Although I have said in 2 that the architect is responsible for checking suitability, in my opinion, so is the contractor although to a lesser extent. One of my views is that as a building contractor "We do not design, we build!!!"

Therefore any critical design changes should be okayed by the designer, in most cases the architect and put in writing so there is paper trail. If as a builder you undertake a critical design change without the knowledge or the thumbs up from the architect, you are therefore liable for this design change.


If I have understood the situation correctly my conclusion would be that the architect should cover the cost of the rectification if he approved the change of dropping the shower tray in the first place without checking the suitability of the Karndean.

If there is no paper trail and no real conversation that took place between all parties to check the suitability of the change then the best you can hope for is that the architect shares the cost of the alteration with you. After all, they should have PI insurance to cover any cock up's they make.

Unfortunately most architects feel that they are beyond sticking their hands in their pockets and stumping up for their own cock ups. Which means that you could end up with the sh*t end of the stick.

I've had clients like this before and I really don't envy you. It takes over your life and makes you wonder why your doing this in the first place.

 

[hitony]

I know the type and no doubt you offered the most "competitive" quote? You wonder on contracts like these what other business you could be doing instead of all the hassle this guy is giving, I've always thought several easy to manage contracts are better than all in so to speak!

In fairness, it would be fair to say the Architect is causing many of the problems as well, he is working mm perfect and the old building is all over the place, fixing new to old is never good (the client was advised to knock it down and start again, I told him that, but he has lived there many years so sentimental feelings came into it, which i understand, but in all new work we have done (like new floor boards) he would not pay for us to level the existing joists, consequently the new flooring is all over the place, he has paid for new flooring and expected it to be totally level, but refused to pay for it, I did point it out at the time, but he wouldn't have it, its just an on going saga which won't stop till we finish i guess!

 

[Mr Bridger]

I always communicate with the client via email so it's confirmed if anything goes wrong. I'll always give my professional opinion and try and back it up.
As far as your concerned you are following the clients request, and from your point of view you are correct , it's not a wet room.
If the shower/ screen is completely sealed then really it shouldnt be a problem.
Is the client asking you to bear the costs of the correction?
Funnily enough I've just recommended Karndean flooring for a client of mine for bathrooms and ensuites, so I better check up to see if suitable.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

The food chain-

Architect
The Customer
The Building contractor
The Builders/trades
The Delivery driver

I will stand by my opening post in this thread- Assassinate the Architect

Get me to deliver,make sure the Architect is in that day,make an excuse-call him down to the roadside to get a better view of the house or what not,and being a typical white van man,as i pull up i will reach for my Bacon sarnie and as i do so the bottle of coke in my foot well will get stuck under my break pedal and jobs a good one.

 

[hitony]

I always communicate with the client via email so it's confirmed if anything goes wrong. I'll always give my professional opinion and try and back it up.
As far as your concerned you are following the clients request, and from your point of view you are correct , it's not a wet room.
If the shower/ screen is completely sealed then really it shouldnt be a problem.
Is the client asking you to bear the costs of the correction?
Funnily enough I've just recommended Karndean flooring for a client of mine for bathrooms and ensuites, so I better check up to see if suitable.

Since beginning of Novenber there are close to 1000 e mails to do with just this one job.
The shower screen dont come into play as it does not have any at the front, it is open -
Karndean only state "Not suitable for wet rooms" they recommend it for bathrooms, on there web site there are many photos showing bathrooms with it in.
The architect is saying we have to bear the cost but I guess the client is as well.

Thanks for everyones opinions, keep them coming, I will repolay later i have to go out now, thanks again

 

[Rowdey]

I always communicate with the client via email so it's confirmed if anything goes wrong. I'll always give my professional opinion and try and back it up.
As far as your concerned you are following the clients request, and from your point of view you are correct , it's not a wet room.
If the shower/ screen is completely sealed then really it shouldnt be a problem.
Is the client asking you to bear the costs of the correction?
Funnily enough I've just recommended Karndean flooring for a client of mine for bathrooms and ensuites, so I better check up to see if suitable.

This.

As a Wet Room installer for the past 13 years, these are my thoughts on the installation.
The key point is you are having a screen/enclosure to keep bulk of water inside tray.
Your bathroom/shower room is just that, and not a wet room with water running off the floor into tray/former.

We've done lots of vinyl sheeting wet room's, but I've never put Karndean (tiles) into a wet room and wouldn't unless Karndean in writing told me i could; Importantly Karndean's domestic web site has at least three images showing it laid in a bathroom/shower floor.

So long as you have a good installer, and seal the edge of tray to the Karndean you'll be fine.

Final thought, Karndean would prob come out and see you to give opinion if you asked for it.

HTH