You must have known there was something fishy when you were typing that!
The key phrase from my post is:-
Stolen from [MENTION=16720]Indurain's Lungs[/MENTION] ' post on 'geeks',
Now it makes sense!
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Lance Armstrong ends fight against doping charges
- Thread starter martyn20
- Start date
The key phrase from my post is:-
Stolen from [MENTION=16720]Indurain's Lungs[/MENTION] ' post on 'geeks',
Now it makes sense!
Woodchip
It's all about the bikes
Ah, missed that. Too early in the morning for my brain to operate as I'd not had my early morning cuppa.
The more I hear about this the more I fear that Lance is fooked!
I said a couple of pages back this, unsurprisingly, is the moment he either goes to jail or The White House.
He used Federal funds to finance an illegal drug operation. He dealt drugs lied bullied and cheated.
Also there have been long term mumblings about Livestrong's cash flow.
They are either unfounded rumours from people who couldn't pin LA to drugs.
Or there's some truth there which will come out now the 'invincible cloak' has been taken down.
Alternatively he got shafted by a bunch of cheating Europeans, who are all at it, and can't stand a superpower like USA USA USA going over there and showing them how to be winners.
All the while raising hundreds of millions of dollars for people with cancer, just like your mother, wife, daughter, neighbour.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
Mostly column A and a little of column B!
There are 2 major reports coming out of Italy and Spain in the next couple of months (padova and Puerto I think). The former says they have all of Ferrari's client list, which teams employed him and evidence of money siphoned through Swiss accounts.
In the words of one cycling pundit, 'there's a tidal wave coming'.
Let's hope so, but somehow I fear it'll just be the cyclists on there again...
Woodchip
It's all about the bikes
This. 100% this.
Just take a delicious moment to think it's EVERYBODY.
Oh the joy we'd all have when all the finger pointers have to suddenly look at their own sport.
mejonaNO12 aka riskit
Well-known member
For anyone interested in finding out about how the teams/riders went about getting the drugs/ how open it was between them all, I would certainly recommend listing to Five Live's podcast called 'Peddlers: Cycling's Dirty Truth
'
The first 3/4 has interviews with Tyler Hamilton, as well as interviews with Dick Pound (a chief drugs tester) and Emma O'Reily (worked closely with Armstong and went to fetch his drugs from Valencia). Fascinating stuff really, especially from Hamilton who explains how he got into it, how it made him feel, how the teams accessed it and only offered certain pay packages based on whether he would take the drugs or not.
The last quater of the show absolutely rips into Armstrong.
Great listen.
'
The first 3/4 has interviews with Tyler Hamilton, as well as interviews with Dick Pound (a chief drugs tester) and Emma O'Reily (worked closely with Armstong and went to fetch his drugs from Valencia). Fascinating stuff really, especially from Hamilton who explains how he got into it, how it made him feel, how the teams accessed it and only offered certain pay packages based on whether he would take the drugs or not.
The last quater of the show absolutely rips into Armstrong.
Great listen.
I will be listening when I finally get off my arse, off here, stop watching Monty Python, and generally fart arsing around.
mejonaNO12 aka riskit
Well-known member
My favourite part was, after being asked about a rider who got caught, Hamilton replied "He should never have got himself caught that close to a raceday". Not "He should never have done the drugs". It's amazing just how it was the absolute NORM to be doing it.
Monsieur Le Plonk
Lethargy in motion
....and what about those not on those lists. They won't be guaranteed to be clean either. Guilty by the association of simply being a pro cyclist.
Guilty unless proven innocent and proving innocence is impossible retrospectively.
What do the NSC cyclist geeks such as SB, IL, 1066, Pantani etc really believe is the extent of this. Was it literally EVERYONE?
There's ALWAYS been a culture of doping in professional cycling. This isn't surprising if you consider Henri Desgrange's attitute to race organisation (read 'Blazing Saddles'). Once doping is essentially condoned by the governing body it's a difficult thing to fight against. The current batch of Team Managers/DS's rode through the 90's and were managed by those who rode through the 70's. This continuation of rider to manager goes all the way back (as it does in most sports). If riders have always doped in some way then when they become management they're unlikely to take a strong anti-doping stance, and so the whole thing continues.
The Festina affair in 1998 was huge, but saw protests from riders against dope-testing which they saw as invasive. Then came the Armstrong era, with doping still ingrained in the peloton. However, in the last couple of years there does genuinely seem to be a cultural change. Riders have protested against dopers, not the testers. Doped riders have gone to prison. Teams have been thrown out of races for 1 rider testing positive. Do I think everyone now rides clean? No. Is the peloton cleaner now than 20 years ago? Probably - testing gets better, but so do the drugs so you're always playing catch up. I do believe that it's now possible to genuinely compete clean. I'd still like to see life bans for all dopers, especially those now in management (Riis, Yates, Vaughters, etc). I'd like transparency from the UCI who seem to give with one hand (biological passports) but take with the other (test results covered up, borderline bribery, etc).
I'm also (perhaps sadly) of the opinion that ALL results should be taken with a pinch of salt. I doubt I'll be surprised by allegations or proven results against any rider now. That doesn't mean I think everyone's on something, but I've been forced to accept that there's a good chance some of them will be. It doesn't stop me enjoying the sport for the specticle that it still is.
Cycling has turned a corner. Again.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
I know I wasn't on your list of NSC geeks but hopefully I've got an informed opinion with a little inside knowledge!
Its obviously not EVERYONE! Back when I was racing in the 90s, there was a widely held belief that Boardman was the only completely clean rider in the world's top 100. It was very prevalent, even amongst some of the British domestic riders.
After the Festina scandal, there were fewer doing it as it wasn't provided on a plate for them as it had been before. After a brief slowdown, people worked out how to use the old systems for themselves - tweaking things to stay below the new 50% limit. This limit did prevent people killing themselves with a haematocrit of 60%+ but it also made people believe they needed to top up to that level - a belief that was peddled by teams and coaches alike.
The pressure on new young riders was immense, particularly from this country heading to the continent. You always get an absolute kicking when you move up a grade but riders were already beaten in the head as they thought everyone was doping. This led to their doping and so the cycle continued. One of my contemporaries went down this route and was banned when riding as a stagiaire for FDJ - probably as a result of being given very little support by the team on how to dope rather than him being the only one doing it.
There were some clean riders around - Moncoutie is mentioned in Millar's book (though not by name for some reason) as one who was always paniagua. Some of these riders are the ones who are doing much better in the twilight of their career now the sport is cleaner. Cadel Evans, for all his character flaws, is also one of those who benefitted (an interesting comparison here showing Evans had superior lab testing at 22 to Armstrong).
http://www.ridemedia.com.au/?p=7387
The sport is probably the cleanest its ever been now, a lot of it thanks to the likes of Sky and Garmin. Hopefully USADA, Puerto, Padova will start to change the Italian and Spanish doping cultures - some of their most popular riders are unrepentant dopers (Valverde, Scarponi etc.).
In summary, there was a pandemic of doping in cycling that is improving and was completely understandable given the pressures on young riders. If people think this is unique to cycling then they are wrong. Operation Puerto had a huge number of athletes, footballers and basketball players on the list that were never followed-up. Marathon times have dropped dramatically in line with EPO use - I suspect that is to do with less than stringent Kenyan/Ethiopian testing procedures. Likewise, a whole host of other sports are fearful of how cycling is perceived and do not want to start discovering wide ranging doping networks.
Edit - just realised IL is me!! I am one of your listed geeks.
Monsieur Le Plonk
Lethargy in motion
Teaboy and Indurain's Lungs - thank you. Fascinating stuff.
One more question - how do you guys now feel about the sport that you obviously love? As you say, it's a problem that was endemic for many years and wildely recognised by those close to the sport. But I'm guessing that there are some facts coming out that are testing even your long-held beliefs and theories. You left deflated by the whole thing or just a bit suprised it hasn't all come to a head sooner?
Are there any big suprises for you in the names of those guys who have now admitted their guilt or were they always the main suspects in the cycling community? (oops that's 3 questions - all of them pretty basic so sorry in advance)
One more question - how do you guys now feel about the sport that you obviously love? As you say, it's a problem that was endemic for many years and wildely recognised by those close to the sport. But I'm guessing that there are some facts coming out that are testing even your long-held beliefs and theories. You left deflated by the whole thing or just a bit suprised it hasn't all come to a head sooner?
Are there any big suprises for you in the names of those guys who have now admitted their guilt or were they always the main suspects in the cycling community? (oops that's 3 questions - all of them pretty basic so sorry in advance)
Yeah, but apart from that... go Lance, go Lance, go Lance
Even Nike have dumped him.
Well [MENTION=13684]Monsieur Le Plonk[/MENTION] that saves me from writing anything!, top work IL, that's you Indurain's Lungs.
As said by Menjona the BBC podcast Peddlers is a fine listen, the dogs are well walked.
This won't or certainly shouldn't stop at cycling, don't be surprised if this spills over into many other sports.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
To be honest, I'm a little bit upset at the extent of what was happening but not surprised. My overriding feeling, though, is that I dodged a bullet by not pursuing it as a career. I used to think I would have been tempted and probably ended up doping to be competitive, now I think I wouldn't have had a choice.
Not really. I think the only admissions that would shock me are if Boardman or Bassons admitted to doping! (from that era I mean, obviously Wiggins, Thomas, Phinney etc. from the modern era)
Nope as said no surprises.
We all know and watched the stories connected to Bassons and Simioni (sp), at the time.
The truly amazing thing is that we all let it happen.
Once removed from Lance very few level headed fans can look at 7 Tour wins beating known dopers, without questioning it.
The journo's have come in for a lot of stick about this.
A few come out completely exonerated, but many many journo's and editors had their noses in the trough, and that's now coming back to bite them.
Fingers crossed, one fall out from all of this will be proper cycling journalism one step removed from the athletes.
Daniel Friebe @friebos
BusinessWeek reckons that yesterday might have cost Lance Armstrong $30million Armstrong Stands to Lose $30 Million as Sponsors Flee - Businessweek …
BusinessWeek reckons that yesterday might have cost Lance Armstrong $30million Armstrong Stands to Lose $30 Million as Sponsors Flee - Businessweek …
Woodchip
It's all about the bikes
There were no huge shocks (more disappointment than shock - Levi I'm looking at you!!), as when you step back you have to look at the field during Lance's time and think there is no way he could have beaten so many dopers without a little extra "juice".
The sport I love is ever changing for the better (unlike football). More and more riders are riding (what appears to be) clean. Thankfully riders like Vino and Ricco are the exemption rather than the rule.