Good point, well made. They wouldn't know what to do with their weekends though.....
Junior doctors to escalate industrial action to all-out strike next month
- Thread starter TomandJerry
- Start date
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Good point, well made. They wouldn't know what to do with their weekends though.....
boik
Well-known member
Thankyou to those who have taken time to explain this. Things are never as clear cut as people with vested interests make them out to be, but I feel I understand a bit more now.
worthingseagull123
Well-known member
- May 5, 2012
- 2,714
gordonchas
New member
- Jul 1, 2012
- 230
Yes, it is. There are complaints in this thread that not enough doctors are being trained but that report says too many are being trained based on future needs;
"Unless action is taken to alter the current trajectories, there could be more fully trained hospital doctors than the current projected demand suggests will be required."
bluenitsuj
Listen to me!!!
Totally agree 100%.
I'm sorry but you've misunderstood what that report says. By 'fully trained hospital doctors' it means consultants - i.e. doctors no longer 'in training' as junior doctors (junior doctors being most doctors up to the age of late thirties). All the report is saying is that a large number of doctors are set to reach consultant level simultaneously, causing a headache for budgeting and career progression - not that there are overall too many doctors.
Instead, see these figures that, among other things, indicate more than 6,000 vacant doctor positions (7% vacancy rate), and the associated push by all areas of the NHS to recruit from abroad: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35667939
That one report you cite does not show an overall surplus of doctors, at all, whereas there is ample evidence of a severe shortage.
glasfryn
cleaning up cat sick
your location says you are in Willingdon
pop over to the DGH one early morning (3am) maybe and see just how junior doctors work, I have been there many times now since moving back down here.
on three(3) ocaisions they have twice saved my life and on another diagnosed correctly and saved my sight, they have been every time overworked, but still managed to carry on and do the job.
while in the ITU at the Royal Sussex one junior doctor who I thouhgt had gone home was still there after a 12 hour shift writing up on cases, still smiling and happy to talk about my case.
I really do not think that you or I would be that accommodating after such a long shift.
#youcanneverhaveenoughdoctors
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
"back in my day" comparisons are not helpful. GP work was a lot less pressured 15 years ago, many fewer consultations and less time-hungry red tape. Out of hours then involved infrequent stints doing house calls for the genuinely sick, it now 8nvolves pretty much the same as a full surgery session - not sustainable on top of 12 hour days keeping up with normal work.
We can agree on one thing though, how did the government not think gps would opt out of out-of-hours work given the chance?!
Well, I can't totally agree with you. My father was a GP for many years and worked a damn' sight longer hours than any GP does these days. He and his partners ran a very large practice with a fraction of the admin staff that practices have these days.They also knew their patients and there was continuity of care.He loved his career, but I must admit that family life did suffer.Yes, there is a huge amount of red tape and bureaucracy these days, but there is also a lot of admin back up. I wouldn't expect anyone to work the hours he did( I am going back rather more than 15 years here), but to say that GP's work long hours is up for discussion,as far as I am concerned.
Can't completely comment on your post, because I don't understand the bit about..........it now involves pretty etc.
Yes, things have changed and I think it is true to say that as far as many are concerned, not for the better.
Hope I'm not too guilty of 'back in my day' comparisons; I have to hold back when my old man aged 99 in May bangs on about 'his day' to me!
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of junior doctors don't belong to the BMA. They feel it doesn't always represent them.
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
It's around 75-80% who do. Though it's fair to say they aren't always very popular, people are fairly united on this one.
pb21
Well-known member
- Apr 23, 2010
- 7,003
Heard Hunt on the TV this morning saying that DRs shouldn’t be striking as we, the electorate, voted for a 7 day NHS at the last general election, what an absolute cretin of the highest order this odious man is.
For a start 63% of people didn’t vote Tory and therefore a 7 day NHS, but regardless of this, even if 100% of the people voted for a 7 day NHS, that doesn’t equate to the electorate voting for a 7 day NHS to be run by monkeys!
The way he patronises and deceives the public is shocking, the bloke is an utter disgrace and I can only imagine he has got something on some higher echelon Tories that he is able to be selected to be an MP let alone a cabinet minister.
For a start 63% of people didn’t vote Tory and therefore a 7 day NHS, but regardless of this, even if 100% of the people voted for a 7 day NHS, that doesn’t equate to the electorate voting for a 7 day NHS to be run by monkeys!
The way he patronises and deceives the public is shocking, the bloke is an utter disgrace and I can only imagine he has got something on some higher echelon Tories that he is able to be selected to be an MP let alone a cabinet minister.
Hotchilidog
Well-known member
- Jan 24, 2009
- 9,575
Also the ignoring the fact that the NHS is actually open at the weekend already
happypig
Staring at the rude boys
This is what I was saying during the GE campaign. The Tories seem to be ideologically unable to to understand how a "service" can operate without profit being made by someone somewhere. It may be "free" at the point of use, but public money raised via taxation, would start being diverted away from staff and equipment and into the pockets of shareholders, a lot of whom are Tory MP's (and some LibDems and Labour too).
Yup, not a surprise at all. Any of us with friends or family who work in the NHS have known this for a long time. Here in the south east, I know within nursing that as soon as an open role gets filled there's a new open role that needs to be filled - the one that got vacated to fill the one that was originally advertised for. There's simply not enough qualified staff to fill all of the required roles, with the end result being that the local hospitals and services are constantly poaching staff off each other. It also means that some roles are only ever filled for short periods, with staff taking on a role but staying in the jobs market hoping to find an even better role for themselves - which they know is going to come up sooner rather than later given the turnover rates.
I know within the various research teams across the south east, they just cannot find and keep anywhere near enough qualified nurses to be able to meet their research targets.
If the NHS is going to be a fully 7 day service, it needs the funding to do that. More than that, it also needs to be seen as a desirable career in order to attract enough staff to fill the roles needed. Neither of those requirements are being met at the moment, and Jeremy Hunt's plans are not doing anything to help either of those requirements be met anytime soon either.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,465
i missed this at the time. its start well however longer hours is not being asked of the doctors, the agreement had (last time i checked) reduced maximum weekly and shift pattern hours considerable and wasn't even an issue the union was arguing over. it all boiled down to recognition of the weekend shifts.
Isn't the point that there aren't enough doctors to cover the hours that are needed to have a genuine 7 day NHS? If the answer is there are enough then are we also suggesting that currently doctors are not working 2/7 of the time?
Then what about all the other staff that are required. Consultants, nurses, admin, etc etc.... Recently reported that we are bringing in 500 nurses from the Philippines so quite clearly there are recruitment problems in the UK. Coming up with shift patterns doesn't actually mean you have enough staff to work those shits!
Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
Exactly this. There are huge gaps in rotas at the moment (which cover 24/7) with bullying to cover the extra empty shifts - people are being told to stay on and cover the night shift after working the long day (13 hours) as there is no cover which is illegal.
You want everything available all weekend you need to fill up the rotas to cover current 5 day elective and 24/7 emergency then add another 2 days of elective cover.
And any way, it's pointless focusing on doctors who already cover 24/7 as there aren't any of the other staff for weekend elective working.
With all this it turns out that people don't actually use elective weekend appointments. Trials where I work failed as patients wanted weekday appointments rather than using up evenings/weekends. The problem is that most voters aren't regular NHS users so their opinion is bases solely on whether they can get a gp appointment.
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