Junior doctors strike was all about money.....

[Buzzer]

Would mediocre not be an excellent example of middle managers? I.E not the organ grinder and not the monkey, somewhere in the middle.

You've dug yourself a hole there. So by your reckoning a captain in the army is mediocre and so is a ward sister and a deputy head of a school. Genuine question do you tell your staff who report to you that they are mediocre?

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

The pay issues were always (as far as I can tell) about distribution of pay, rather than absolute levels. The contract that government threatened to enforce would have cut incomes for those that work the crappiest shifts (i.e. the most nights and weekends) and benefitted the rest. It would also have severely damaged the pay prospects of those that take time out of the front line (for maternity/paternity leave, medical research or other purposes). I guess the DoH figured that they could appeal to the majority with basic pay rises and force the contract through - but it turned out that the junior doctors (and the BMA) were rather more concerned with what they perceived as 'fairness' than their individual bottom line, for which I think they should be applauded.

On top of that there were other issues that the BMA were not happy with, including the safeguards to stop hospitals asking doctors to work excessive hours (which would have been bad for both junior doctors and patients). The government gave some way on most of these during the negotiations that took place after industrial action took place, but since they could not come to agreement on the biggest issue (the distribution of pay, as outlined above) these changes never made it into the contract that was to be enforced. It's only now, that they've finally come to an agreement on the last issue, that the new contract up for vote includes all of the additional changes.

A good summary - the new agreement reduces the number of increments, places them earlier in training where responsibility rapidly increases but protects more senior trainees who have not benefited from this early in their career.

There are big changes in payment for time worked, although its not clear how this will work as it needs prior approval. This comes at a cost of doctors only being able to work for their current employer (i.e no locum shifts at other hospitals) and at a rate much lower than current locum rates. This will cause huge problems for specialties like A&E who are massively reliant on locums.

It will be interesting to see the full details when they are released. The BMA were obviously prepared to fight hard for this but seem to have suddenly acquiesced on previous "red lines" so other parts must compensate.

 

[Albumen]

I have been saying it for months. Already well paid compared to the average UK worker, but unwilling to work as hard as a normal worker. Selfish toxxers the lot of 'em.

What a load of old shite. The average UK worker doesn't work as hard as nurses/jnr doctors. Also the OP's thread title is an outright lie.
When you get ill you wont be moaning then.

 

[Biscuit]

You've dug yourself a hole there. So by your reckoning a captain in the army is mediocre and so is a ward sister and a deputy head of a school. Genuine question do you tell your staff who report to you that they are mediocre?

No I haven't. You've simply misunderstood me. Try reading it again.

 

[Buzzer]

No I haven't. You've simply misunderstood me. Try reading it again.

I don't think I've misunderstood anything. I think it's you that's misunderstood the meaning of the word mediocre. From the OED "of only average quality; not very good"

You also forget a few things about middle managers. They might be there because they are only part of the way through their career. Senior executives don't all of a sudden become really good on being promoted. And how would anyone get promoted if there work is recognised as mediocre? People might also be middle managers because they enjoy the job they are doing. And another reason might be because there are few vacancies as they climb the work pyramid.

Or they might be a specialist in a specific role and there is nowhere left to climb. I'll give you an example: Dr David Kelly, the scientist who died after giving evidence about WMDs in parliament. He was the top man in his field. There was no-one in the MoD who knew more about biological warfare than him. His boss was not a specialist, he was a policy wonk. Dr David Kelly was neither an organ grinder or a monkey nor was he in the middle and he certainly wasn't mediocre.

 

[Chicken Run]

No I haven't. You've simply misunderstood me. Try reading it again.

Biscuit mate, just accept you meant dull dead end office jobs aka mediocre and not middle managers!

 

[Murray 17]

I can't think of many strikes that haven't been driven by self-interest.

Take the train guards industrial action. They have been told that they won't lose their jobs but will be redeployed. So why are they striking, losing money in the process, to protect the safety on trains that they will no longer be travelling on?

 

[melias shoes]

Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots'

Doctors’ leaders aimed to drag out a bitter dispute over a new contract for 18 months and admitted pay is “the only real red line,” leaked messages reveal.

The secret strategy is revealed in more than 1000 pages of leaked Whatsapp messages - just weeks before 40,000 junior doctors vote on a deal which has just been agreed between the British Medical Association (BMA) and Government.

The correspondence, between members of the union’s Junior Doctors Committee, over the past six months discloses secret tactics which are at odds with the public messages being conveyed.

Despite repeated public protestations that safety, not pay, was the chief concern about proposed changes, a member the committee described pay as ““the only real red line” for junior doctors.

The messages show that while the union was claiming it wanted enter talks with Government, its committee chairman was privately suggesting that delaying tactics, and a string of strikes, could be the “best solution” to the dispute

http://www.hsj.co.uk/topics/workfor...ut-junior-doctors-dispute/7005113.fullarticle

Not surprised in the slightest. The save our nhs chant was a decoy.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I thought that was a Winston Churchill story.

That was:

Sir you are drunk!

reply

Madame, you are ugly. But in the morning I will be sober . . . . .

 

[Seagull58]

That was:

Sir you are drunk!

reply

Madame, you are ugly. But in the morning I will be sober . . . . .

I heard the prostitute one attributed to him also but who knows.

 

[Seagull58]

I don't think I've misunderstood anything. I think it's you that's misunderstood the meaning of the word mediocre. From the OED "of only average quality; not very good"

You also forget a few things about middle managers. They might be there because they are only part of the way through their career. Senior executives don't all of a sudden become really good on being promoted. And how would anyone get promoted if there work is recognised as mediocre? People might also be middle managers because they enjoy the job they are doing. And another reason might be because there are few vacancies as they climb the work pyramid.

Or they might be a specialist in a specific role and there is nowhere left to climb. I'll give you an example: Dr David Kelly, the scientist who died after giving evidence about WMDs in parliament. He was the top man in his field. There was no-one in the MoD who knew more about biological warfare than him. His boss was not a specialist, he was a policy wonk. Dr David Kelly was neither an organ grinder or a monkey nor was he in the middle and he certainly wasn't mediocre.

"who died" as in "who was hounded to death by Alastair Campbell."

 

[BLOCK F]

Leak reveals junior doctors' plot to 'draw out' contract dispute for 18 months and 'tie government in knots'

Doctors’ leaders aimed to drag out a bitter dispute over a new contract for 18 months and admitted pay is “the only real red line,” leaked messages reveal.

The secret strategy is revealed in more than 1000 pages of leaked Whatsapp messages - just weeks before 40,000 junior doctors vote on a deal which has just been agreed between the British Medical Association (BMA) and Government.

The correspondence, between members of the union’s Junior Doctors Committee, over the past six months discloses secret tactics which are at odds with the public messages being conveyed.

Despite repeated public protestations that safety, not pay, was the chief concern about proposed changes, a member the committee described pay as ““the only real red line” for junior doctors.

The messages show that while the union was claiming it wanted enter talks with Government, its committee chairman was privately suggesting that delaying tactics, and a string of strikes, could be the “best solution” to the dispute

http://www.hsj.co.uk/topics/workfor...ut-junior-doctors-dispute/7005113.fullarticle

No surprise.
I said so all along. The BMA have form.
Oh well, El Pres, I don't think I deserved the 'rubbishing' you attempted to give me a while back.
Ho-hum. Glad the strikes are over anyway.

 

[El Presidente]

No surprise.
I said so all along. The BMA have form.
Oh well, El Pres, I don't think I deserved the 'rubbishing' you attempted to give me a while back.
Ho-hum. Glad the strikes are over anyway.

Well I do. If you think that junior doctors are money grabbing so and so's you need your bumps felt.

Hunt wanted a seven day service paid for from a five day budget, with no safeguards in terms of hours worked. He's now made concessions on that.

You may be happy to have a loved one operated on by a doctor that is at the end of an 18 hour shift, I'm not, and I suspect that I am not alone.

 

[Westdene Wonder]

I have been saying it for months. Already well paid compared to the average UK worker, but unwilling to work as hard as a normal worker. Selfish toxxers the lot of 'em.

I had always backed the doctors claims for better pay but when Blair gave them a huge increase and provided them with a five day week I was not happy top find out of hours patients were dealing with doctors who were not good at understanding english but whose qualifications were doutbful, there are many who have to work outside the five day week but are not compensated with a £100,000 salary.

 

[BLOCK F]

Well I do. If you think that junior doctors are money grabbing so and so's you need your bumps felt.

Hunt wanted a seven day service paid for from a five day budget, with no safeguards in terms of hours worked. He's now made concessions on that.

You may be happy to have a loved one operated on by a doctor that is at the end of an 18 hour shift, I'm not, and I suspect that I am not alone.

El Pres, you are waffling. Face facts, the BMA have been banged to rights.
All that righteous indignation and 'we are protecting the NHS' has been largely shown for what it was......bullshit.
I do believe that many junior doctors will feel used by their manipulative BMA leaders, such as Malawanna.Hope he disappears without trace, they deserve better.
By the way, there is nothing wrong with my bumps. Suggest it may be more appropriate for yours to be looked at, being as you were taken in so easily.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

I had always backed the doctors claims for better pay but when Blair gave them a huge increase and provided them with a five day week I was not happy top find out of hours patients were dealing with doctors who were not good at understanding english but whose qualifications were doutbful, there are many who have to work outside the five day week but are not compensated with a £100,000 salary.

The GP contract was mismanaged back then but you're confusing issues here. Junior doctors were never given 5 day weeks or any choice on out of hours.

Yes, some will become GPs but even that "mismanaged" negotiation isn't enough to attract people to GP training. GP is all lost people deal with and needs a big overhaul to provide a good service.

 

[Questions]

"who died" as in "who was hounded to death by Alastair Campbell."

Far be be it for me to support that **** Campbell but Kelly was seriously ill on top of what was happening at the time and that was not all necessarily caused by Blair and his lackies.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Well I do. If you think that junior doctors are money grabbing so and so's you need your bumps felt.

Hunt wanted a seven day service paid for from a five day budget, with no safeguards in terms of hours worked. He's now made concessions on that.

You may be happy to have a loved one operated on by a doctor that is at the end of an 18 hour shift, I'm not, and I suspect that I am not alone.

Sorry chap but....

Tough life having to give up some weekends and evenings for what £35-50k a year after training, with the expectation of much more to come, like £104k minimum for being a GP with no weekends or evenings, or very good public sector money as a consultant for 3 days a week and private fees on top. I do not critcise their right to strike, but they hoodwinked the public that it was on their behalf, saving the NHS and all that bullsxxt. Bunch of wxxkers, as I have said since the start of their dispute.

 

[El Presidente]

El Pres, you are waffling. Face facts, the BMA have been banged to rights.
All that righteous indignation and 'we are protecting the NHS' has been largely shown for what it was......bullshit.
I do believe that many junior doctors will feel used by their manipulative BMA leaders, such as Malawanna.Hope he disappears without trace, they deserve better.
By the way, there is nothing wrong with my bumps. Suggest it may be more appropriate for yours to be looked at, being as you were taken in so easily.

If you think that the 98% of the voters were so stupid that they couldn't understand the terms of the contract and were therefore behaving like sheep in following the BMA leadership then you're insulting their intelligence.

There is no extra money offered in the new deal that's been agreed, so how can it be 'all about money'.?

 

[El Presidente]

Sorry chap but....

Tough life having to give up some weekends and evenings for what £35-50k a year after training, with the expectation of much more to come, like £104k minimum for being a GP with no weekends or evenings, or very good public sector money as a consultant for 3 days a week and private fees on top. I do not critcise their right to strike, but they hoodwinked the public that it was on their behalf, saving the NHS and all that bullsxxt. Bunch of wxxkers, as I have said since the start of their dispute.

The new agreement involves no extra money, so why are they wankers?