Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
No idea. They've only given their opinion by tweet so far. Not a lot to go on really...
Jeremy Corbyn.
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No idea. They've only given their opinion by tweet so far. Not a lot to go on really...
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
Well...Curran isn't even a Labour MP anymore so I don't think even Corbynistas can accuse her of sour grapes at not being given a cabinet role.
Shall we put it down to PMT? Women, eh? What are they like?
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
Oh come on, really? Not enough to go on to have an inkling about why they are annoyed? Nah. Don't believe you.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 30,741
So Corbyn has appointed a vegan to be in charge of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs?
How the HELL is that going to work? If she helps dairy farmers to sell more diary produce, poultry farmers to sell more eggs or pork farmers to sell more bacon then she'll be promoting the consumption of animal products, thereby acting entirely against her personal beliefs.
It's like making a pacifist Minister for Defence . Ludicrous.
How the HELL is that going to work? If she helps dairy farmers to sell more diary produce, poultry farmers to sell more eggs or pork farmers to sell more bacon then she'll be promoting the consumption of animal products, thereby acting entirely against her personal beliefs.
It's like making a pacifist Minister for Defence . Ludicrous.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,413
well he's pretty clear i think - he's against both. he will fanny around with comments about reforming the relationship (where else have we heard that...) but clearly his preferred outcome of the reform is to be outside of both.
heres the interesting thing to watch, how long will he be able to maintain the much vaunted positions of principle before the pragmatic realities of office take hold. does he stick to his principles even if they appear to lose popularity? or does he start softening positions to keep people in the camp? europe being the most obvious source of conflict, i can see how he's going to maintain his current position to not rule out campaigning against, without alienating a large pro-EU left wing group.
Well Norman Baker is a vegan or at least veggie, maybe that's why they didn't put him into Environment in 2010.
pastafarian
Well-known member
Corbyn's Cabinet Chaos: The Inside Story
http://news.sky.com/story/1552307/corbyns-cabinet-chaos-the-inside-story
The statues of Churchill, Thatcher, Attlee, Lloyd George - Britain's greatest 20th century Prime Ministers - loom large over the members' lobby in the House of Commons.They can weigh heavy on MPs, entering the chamber at times of crucial debates, and on leaders too as they try to whip their MPs.And it was here I found myself on Sunday afternoon, sent on the hunt to find the elusive new Labour leader.Parliament is a big place, miles of corridors, nooks and crannies. And so with colleagues from the BBC and ITN the search began.It took a while, quite a while, but at the end of a bookshelf-lined corridor, opening up to the members’ lobby and behind a door grandly named Her Majesty’s Official Opposition Whips’ Office, Jeremy Corbyn was holed up.
With him were his adviser Simon Fletcher, shadow chief whip Rosie Winterton and her adviser, and a young woman, who described herself at one point as "the tea girl".We didn’t buy this description. She was clearly more involved, though she was at that moment also carrying lots of tea.
And so it began. Lord Falconer popped in, emerging with a smile but saying nothing.We heard rumours Andy Burnham had been and gone. That David Lammy had been spotted.But there were to be no others, this would be a shadow cabinet appointed over the phone.Jeremy would talk to them. Rosie would talk to them. Simon would get the message out, who was in and who was out.
How do I know this? Well, I could hear it, not all of it, not most of it, but some of it.There was no glass pressed against a door, simply four journalists in a grand Commons character, loitering, tweeting, trying to see who was coming and going.Behind a not-very-thick door, we could hear conversations which often spiked in volume and were clearly audible.
"Andy is IN, Hilary is IN, Angela is IN," was the line Rosie would use in an attempt to win people over and get on board with Jezza’s shadow cabinet.But, no announcements came, the conversations continued and then Jeremy emerged, smartly dressed in a black shirt."How is everything?" we asked. "Everything is wonderful, just wonderful," he mused
"Would it be a long night?" we asked. "The night is but young," he responded.By 8pm it didn’t seem that young but it was.The phone calls continued but defence seemed like it had been settled.It had been offered to Chris Bryant."Jeremy was up for it," Rosie said on the phone, but then it fell apart after Bryant insisted on "a 30-minute conversation about what would happen if we had to invade Russia".
That was a conversation Jeremy clearly wasn’t prepared to have. Bryant was out.
"Oh maybe Jack Dromey would be good at defence." But no, Rosie had to get back to her "defence problem".A laugh ensued it was "the defence of the realm after all".
It was dark now, it was quiet, eerily quiet - just us and them, us on our phones, tweeting, them on their phones, calling.And again Jeremy emerged, which he seemed to do once every hour, when a toilet break was needed.
We of course kept asking questions, but the responses became more curt. By 9.15pm, it was a mere "hello" from Mr Corbyn.But defence was still proving difficult.
Rosie was back on the phone, we couldn’t tell who with."Now, this might be a bit of an outside idea, how do you feel about being shadow defence secretary?"A pause. "Just, what are your views on Trident?"A much, much longer pause. "But, are you willing to engage in a debate?"
We don’t know who that was, but it was clear they were working through a list, and had reached a point in the list where due diligence hadn’t yet reached.
And it went on. Rosie again. "We offered Lucy DECC (Department of Energy and Climate Change) but she said, she wasn’t ready, she wanted something to do with childcare."And on. Security had come round. Doors locked. Lights turned off. But announcements were coming. Burnham was indeed in, as was Benn. And Eagle too, but not as shadow chancellor, that was John McDonnell.
Why all the men? We rushed towards Jeremy as he emerged again. He smile. He walked. But he would no longer engage.All the shadow cabinet top positions had gone to men, Labour MPs started to complain online, this is surely not what a Corbyn shadow cabinet was meant to look like.
Then a male voice, it sounded like Simon Fletcher."We are taking a fair amount of **** out there about women."We need to do a Mandelson. Let’s make Angela shadow first minister of state. Like Mandelson was. She can cover PMQs. Tom (Watson) knows about this. Do the Angela bit now."
Minutes later a text from a Labour source. Angela Eagle was to be shadow first minister of state. She would deputise at Prime Minister's Question Time.
Was this the plan all along, or a last-minute reaction to outrage on Twitter and private message? We may never know.
It was now very late, Big Ben had struck midnight some time ago. I was tired. We were all tired. And hungry.And then, there he was again but he had a coat on, yes a coat - it is over?
"Are you tired?" I asked. Managing to smile, just, he quipped: "We never sleep, sleep ended months ago."He disappeared, answering his phone as he went: "Excellent, that’s really good news, thanks."My assumption at the time that after much speculation Gloria De Piero had agreed to defence, but no announcement came.
Then he was gone, they were all gone. But where? We must get pictures of him leaving (you can’t film on the Parliamentary estate).We bumped into Rosie Winterton on the way out - questions, lots of questions.
"Please go through the press office, thanks," was repeated to them all.But we followed her out in her car and so did Jeremy Corbyn. And so my chance to ask all those questions on camera.
http://news.sky.com/story/1552307/corbyns-cabinet-chaos-the-inside-story
The statues of Churchill, Thatcher, Attlee, Lloyd George - Britain's greatest 20th century Prime Ministers - loom large over the members' lobby in the House of Commons.They can weigh heavy on MPs, entering the chamber at times of crucial debates, and on leaders too as they try to whip their MPs.And it was here I found myself on Sunday afternoon, sent on the hunt to find the elusive new Labour leader.Parliament is a big place, miles of corridors, nooks and crannies. And so with colleagues from the BBC and ITN the search began.It took a while, quite a while, but at the end of a bookshelf-lined corridor, opening up to the members’ lobby and behind a door grandly named Her Majesty’s Official Opposition Whips’ Office, Jeremy Corbyn was holed up.
With him were his adviser Simon Fletcher, shadow chief whip Rosie Winterton and her adviser, and a young woman, who described herself at one point as "the tea girl".We didn’t buy this description. She was clearly more involved, though she was at that moment also carrying lots of tea.
And so it began. Lord Falconer popped in, emerging with a smile but saying nothing.We heard rumours Andy Burnham had been and gone. That David Lammy had been spotted.But there were to be no others, this would be a shadow cabinet appointed over the phone.Jeremy would talk to them. Rosie would talk to them. Simon would get the message out, who was in and who was out.
How do I know this? Well, I could hear it, not all of it, not most of it, but some of it.There was no glass pressed against a door, simply four journalists in a grand Commons character, loitering, tweeting, trying to see who was coming and going.Behind a not-very-thick door, we could hear conversations which often spiked in volume and were clearly audible.
"Andy is IN, Hilary is IN, Angela is IN," was the line Rosie would use in an attempt to win people over and get on board with Jezza’s shadow cabinet.But, no announcements came, the conversations continued and then Jeremy emerged, smartly dressed in a black shirt."How is everything?" we asked. "Everything is wonderful, just wonderful," he mused
"Would it be a long night?" we asked. "The night is but young," he responded.By 8pm it didn’t seem that young but it was.The phone calls continued but defence seemed like it had been settled.It had been offered to Chris Bryant."Jeremy was up for it," Rosie said on the phone, but then it fell apart after Bryant insisted on "a 30-minute conversation about what would happen if we had to invade Russia".
That was a conversation Jeremy clearly wasn’t prepared to have. Bryant was out.
"Oh maybe Jack Dromey would be good at defence." But no, Rosie had to get back to her "defence problem".A laugh ensued it was "the defence of the realm after all".
It was dark now, it was quiet, eerily quiet - just us and them, us on our phones, tweeting, them on their phones, calling.And again Jeremy emerged, which he seemed to do once every hour, when a toilet break was needed.
We of course kept asking questions, but the responses became more curt. By 9.15pm, it was a mere "hello" from Mr Corbyn.But defence was still proving difficult.
Rosie was back on the phone, we couldn’t tell who with."Now, this might be a bit of an outside idea, how do you feel about being shadow defence secretary?"A pause. "Just, what are your views on Trident?"A much, much longer pause. "But, are you willing to engage in a debate?"
We don’t know who that was, but it was clear they were working through a list, and had reached a point in the list where due diligence hadn’t yet reached.
And it went on. Rosie again. "We offered Lucy DECC (Department of Energy and Climate Change) but she said, she wasn’t ready, she wanted something to do with childcare."And on. Security had come round. Doors locked. Lights turned off. But announcements were coming. Burnham was indeed in, as was Benn. And Eagle too, but not as shadow chancellor, that was John McDonnell.
Why all the men? We rushed towards Jeremy as he emerged again. He smile. He walked. But he would no longer engage.All the shadow cabinet top positions had gone to men, Labour MPs started to complain online, this is surely not what a Corbyn shadow cabinet was meant to look like.
Then a male voice, it sounded like Simon Fletcher."We are taking a fair amount of **** out there about women."We need to do a Mandelson. Let’s make Angela shadow first minister of state. Like Mandelson was. She can cover PMQs. Tom (Watson) knows about this. Do the Angela bit now."
Minutes later a text from a Labour source. Angela Eagle was to be shadow first minister of state. She would deputise at Prime Minister's Question Time.
Was this the plan all along, or a last-minute reaction to outrage on Twitter and private message? We may never know.
It was now very late, Big Ben had struck midnight some time ago. I was tired. We were all tired. And hungry.And then, there he was again but he had a coat on, yes a coat - it is over?
"Are you tired?" I asked. Managing to smile, just, he quipped: "We never sleep, sleep ended months ago."He disappeared, answering his phone as he went: "Excellent, that’s really good news, thanks."My assumption at the time that after much speculation Gloria De Piero had agreed to defence, but no announcement came.
Then he was gone, they were all gone. But where? We must get pictures of him leaving (you can’t film on the Parliamentary estate).We bumped into Rosie Winterton on the way out - questions, lots of questions.
"Please go through the press office, thanks," was repeated to them all.But we followed her out in her car and so did Jeremy Corbyn. And so my chance to ask all those questions on camera.
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
I'm still trying to find out his views on inheritance tax, and whether the state will snatch anything we want to leave as a legacy to our children. If he's ultra left wing, he'll take the lot.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
Many people get annoyed about a great many things. You know what that's like, I know you do...
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 30,741
It's interesting how times change. Corbyn offered the Defence post to Chris Bryant, who declined. Chris is a confirmed homosexual. Thirty years ago that would have been seen as a serious threat to national security and it would have been a non-starter.
All these tales of hundreds of thousands flocking to join Labour's ranks, but is this balanced by a chunk of those who voted Labour last time and simply could not bring themselves to vote for Corbyn and his acolytes next time round ?
I'm not actually sure that these people matter in the context of winning an election.
As I understand it, elections in the UK tend to be decided in key marginals and the views of something like 60,000 voters. Obviously most of these are, by definition, waverers and undecided - and probably fairly centralist in their views. The key question is surely whether these particular voters can be persuaded that Corbyn represents a new breed of moral politician, or whether on the other hand, his brand of Labour is simply too far left to be considered a realistic alternative.
The bookies have him at 7/1 to be the next PM, so clearly they have decided he's not going to persuade such people. But equally, they're not ruling it out. It might only take another scandal where posh city types end up being blamed and not held to account at a time when the needy are being penalised through austerity measures that the electorate perceive to be too drastic, and the mood of the nation could easily swing to "enough is enough".
He's certainly more electable than Ed Milliband in my view. He offers a real alternative, unlike the smarmy career-politician Blairite twàts who were always full of bluster.
Deportivo Seagull
I should coco
He will not set minds at rest because he's all ideology and little practicality. Those in the Falklands have stated the desire to stay in the UK yet he states that it should be either a joint effort or given to Argentina. The feelings of the islanders are not important. I think that looking at results from the last election and the majority in NI it is a similar situation. Democracy is all well and good providing it meets his agenda.
I always thought George Osbourne was the most useless MP in the UK. I think I need to reconsider!
Did you think I was being serious? Do lighten up.... I'm nearly 60 myself.
no I thought you were an idiot who has no counter to the political issues but instead will resort to personal abuse and dress it up as a joke.
but then I'm just making a joke so before you respond, lighten up and get a sense of humour.
Strangely enough being called deluded by someone who who has no resonse to my arguments, but to call me deluded, makes me think I am right, builds my ego and makes me think they are very simple. But I guess thats why im also told im arrogant. I'm not, i just like seeing them froth at the mouth, when I speak. The last thing I'd want is for them to be able to ignore me.
Tories stop being hypocrites? Theres more chance of Jeremy Corbyn being PM
I've actually thought long and hard about this. I'm actually quite glad Corbyn got in. For once there will be a real choice between the parties and I think he will engage young people and get them voting again. He is also the sort of politician I prefer. The other candidates were HOPELESS. So far, so good. But..................
He will need to make Labour electable and he'll have to take the left leaning ground in Scotland back from the SNP as well as appealing to floating voters in order to do so. The sort of manifesto that would appeal to one would turn off the other. No wonder the bloke's 7-1 with the bookies. Secondly I believe he will divide Labour even further to the point where we're treated to more Militant Tendancy, Degsy in a taxi type split with rancorous party conferences played on a loop by a delighted Murdich media (and Murdoch will try to crucify him, the press are already at it). Thirdly, if the Labour election manifesto leans too far left - raising taxes to stupid levels, handing back the Falklands, practicing positive discrimination etc - then I would go back on my pledge to vote for the best constituency MP and vote for whoever I thought would keep Corbyn out (and that might be the Tories for the first time in my life). There is a level that wouldn't put me off - I'm all for social justice - but a neat balance would have to be struck. Is he a good enough leader to do that or are we looking at purges and little red books?
He will need to make Labour electable and he'll have to take the left leaning ground in Scotland back from the SNP as well as appealing to floating voters in order to do so. The sort of manifesto that would appeal to one would turn off the other. No wonder the bloke's 7-1 with the bookies. Secondly I believe he will divide Labour even further to the point where we're treated to more Militant Tendancy, Degsy in a taxi type split with rancorous party conferences played on a loop by a delighted Murdich media (and Murdoch will try to crucify him, the press are already at it). Thirdly, if the Labour election manifesto leans too far left - raising taxes to stupid levels, handing back the Falklands, practicing positive discrimination etc - then I would go back on my pledge to vote for the best constituency MP and vote for whoever I thought would keep Corbyn out (and that might be the Tories for the first time in my life). There is a level that wouldn't put me off - I'm all for social justice - but a neat balance would have to be struck. Is he a good enough leader to do that or are we looking at purges and little red books?
I've seen this a couple of times now. Given the scale of the swing that Labour would need to win a majority, would a party led by Burnham or Cooper really be much lower odds? Difficult to answer that, of course, but I'd be surprised if it were lower than 5-1
Actually this is one of the key points that has to be understood by the left, JC has said that the battle doesnt end on 12th September but begins on 13th September. Only two things have been achieved by his victory. Firstly as has been pointed out, is a continuation of an awakening and groundswell of interest in politics that has been happening across the west for a couple of years. Secondly a changing of the political debate. the economic debate since 2008 has been about how much austerity we need and how quickly it is imposed. Now it will abe about whether we need it and what alternatives there are.
The next election will not be decided on Corbyns beard, homeopathy, how left wing he is or whether he supported the IRA. Nor to be honest will it be decided on Nato, Nationalisation of rail or welfare. They will have some bearing but only if the two key arguments are won. They are the economy and the EU. The Pro or Anti Austerity argument is key to both.
To win the argument on the economy Corbyn has to change the established argument that we have to cut public spending or raise taxes, to a broader argument of raising taxes in a sensible and controlled manner for those most able to afford them, a public spending programme based around building up our economy by getting people back into meaningful secure work with a living wage, which will then increase the tax yield and reduce the welfare bill. Thirdly the need to borrow money now in hard times to be paid back over a manageble period in better times.
None of these arguments are revolutionary, they have all been tried succesfully in the past, particularly in the immediate period after the war, by Labour governments. We were nearly 4 times as deep in a financial hole after the war as we were in 2010. The only different part of these arguments is that the labour party hasnt been making them since 2008. and arguably since the mid 90's. These arguments hold a lot of traction and have to be made boldly assertively and continuously for the next 5 years.
This argument feeds directly into the EU debate, and will be what seperates Corbyn from Farage. Corbyns argument is essentially for us to remain part of Europe it has to benefit all the people of europe and not just big corporations. If we are able to win this he argues we should stay in. If we arent able to get this then what is the benefit for ordinary person. This is an argument about wealth distribution and central to this is the argument about austerity, for the reasons laid out above. Farage's argument is anti europe and saying we need to go back to a sovereign UK at any cost. the pro europe argument is we get so much in the way of trade from europe we need to stay in at any cost. these two arguments are too simplistric and is essentially why europe is such a big issue for the british people. Instinctively they dont trust either argument. A third way pointing out how we need to stay in on terms that benefit us and not big business will be distinct and again if argued boldly and assertively can be a winner.
However this needs to be argued now and for the next 5 years. The longer the Labour Party is distracted by internal struggles the harder it will be. This is why the battle started yesterday. Those who support Corbyn need to push the argument for a unified Labour party arguing the position laid out. That can happen and the awakening of many is a positive start. It needs to be continued.
Actually I honestly believe a bigger obstacle to Labour winning is not the tories austerity programme, which is an argument the left is well capable of winning, but our preference to argue with the left on political purity. than with the right on a political programme. I suspect you and I may have slightly (not massively) different politics, but I would much prefer to work with you on achieving social justice than argue about what our differences are. For all the ability for the left to present themselves in the latter way, please remember the majority would agree with my view. The point is to change society not to argue about changing society.
Good post. I was a traditional Labour voter. Started out very left wing but moved to the centre though I cannot stand Blair. I have tried to move away from party politics as it seemed stuffed full of professional politicians fudging their expenses. Corbyn could yet attract me back to or further away from party politics and I'm trying to keep an open mind. Your point about doing it rather than arguing about it is spot on.