Its the People not the Politicians

[beorhthelm]

at the mention of the "sun" we were in M&S(NAME DROPPING AGAIN) cafe yesterday and while waiting for wifey to be served with their great flat white, I glanced sideways to see a "sun" on the table ...

The Sun, in M&S? i dont believe you.

 

[Hastings gull]

As part of the agreement by France and Germany to allow Greece to join the Euro despite not meeting the 'strict' criteria was that Greece had to buy goods, lots of goods from the two big boys. The major purchase was weapons including 3 billion pounds worth of German submarines that never worked. Greece became the 4th largest buyer of conventional weapons in the world in the noughties. Guess who sold them all those weapons? And why would Greece, a fully-fledged member of NATO want with all those weapons bought from other NATO countries?

http://www.sipri.org/media/pressreleases/2013/ATlaunch

And even when France and Germany were demanding austerity measures from the Greeks they were still expected to pay for the weapons.
(The submarines have never worked. A quick google will reveal all but this was a major factor in pushing Greece over the edge both economically and politically).[/QUOTE

Thanks for your reply. I am not an economist and would defer to anyone who knows more than I do. I did actually do you the courtesy of looking at the link and when I saw the wording such as peace research or some such, wondered how scientific this would be, as it is unlikely that their agenda would advance a balanced view. The only reference to Greece that I saw was as reproduced, which gives a rather different slant to the one presented by yourself.
Greece’s arms imports fell by 61 per cent between 2003–2007 and 2008–12, pushing it from the number 4 importer to number 15. In 2006–10 Greece was the top recipient of German arms exports and the third largest recipient of French arms exports.
I am sure I read that Greeks traditionally have been left to fill in their own tax forms, rather than having tax deducted at source from their pay packets. They then say how much they earn and tax is deducted - there would be no other proof needed. Hardly surprisingly, government coffers have suffered badly, if this is the case, and they need a bale out. As I say, if someone genuinely knows better, then fine.

 

[Hastings gull]

at the mention of the "sun" we were in M&S(NAME DROPPING AGAIN) cafe yesterday and while waiting for wifey to be served with their great flat white, I glanced sideways to see a "sun" on the table and casually flipped through the pages to be nosy ( I never usually read papers) it was the most unadulterated s**t I have ever had the misfortune to read.
no wonder kids grow up to be morons.
DO NOT READ THE "SUN"

With respect, my friend, do you see the irony here?

 

[glasfryn]

The Sun, in M&S? i dont believe you.

 

[glasfryn]

With respect, my friend, do you see the irony here?

papers including the "daily mail" actually had something worth reading when I was young there was no "sun" but there was the "herald"

 

[smudge]

And with that you reveal so much about your own prejudices and voting intentions. You think Emily Thornberry's attitude is a product of those papers? And then you just go on to preach the truth like you're one of the few with real knowledge. People aren't voting UKIP or Tory because they have a different view to you - it's because they're wrong. That's basically what you're saying.

Oh, those ghastly Sun and Mail readers. The horror!

Spot on.

 

[Meade's Ball]

Quite. There's a fundamental flaw in his/her diatribe - the disconnect and distrust between the electorate and politicians is not a British thing, it's global.

The voters in Italy are so dismayed with politics that a new party started by comedy actor, Beppe Grillo is now a major player in local, national and Euro elections. In Reykjavik the mayor (one of the most important political positions in Iceland) is also a comedian - the electorate sending a very strong message to the powers that be. The OP moans about anti-EU sentiment in the UK but things are so bad in Greece that a far-right party are dangerously close to pulling that country apart - and all because of the way that the EU has right royally shafted Greece. And if being good Europeans has got Greece into this mess where does this leave them if being bad Europeans like the Brits is also a terrible thing?

Are the Icelandics, Greeks and Italians also ignorant, short-sighted and need to get their act together?

It sounds as if, like me, you're in the Chuckle Brothers Revolution camp. To Me, To You is a powerful slogan all on its own, but there's something deeply gleeful about a future world filled with mullets and mishaps that few could resist, I think.

 

[RexCathedra]

The Sage of Baltimore, H.L. Mencken, had it right years ago: "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it -- good and hard."

 

[Mr Putdown]

In Reykjavik the mayor (one of the most important political positions in Iceland) is also a comedian - the electorate sending a very strong message to the powers that be.

Eh? Dagur is a doctor, not a comedian.

 

[Surrey_Albion]

I agree its the people, like when staunch labour supporters think labour is still a party of the people and are whiter than white and not crooks, always makes my chuckle that

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Do you think the Mail and Sun give a balanced view of the EU or of immigration? Of course not, they have story after story that reveal their prejudices. You seem to think that is ok. However when I dare to say the opposite I am "preaching". How come?

Strange how you don't mention the Guardian or Mirror in your diatribe - why was that ?

 

[sahel]

Strange how you don't mention the Guardian or Mirror in your diatribe - why was that ?

Not strange at all. The Guardian is an intelligent paper for people who think - not a comic which sets out to support and proselytise the opinions of its owners. One is reasonably eclectic (though clearly coming from a liberal perspective) the others are not

 

[Hastings gull]

Not strange at all. The Guardian is an intelligent paper for people who think - not a comic which sets out to support and proselytise the opinions of its owners. One is reasonably eclectic (though clearly coming from a liberal perspective) the others are not

The arrogance of this statement is beyond belief! I fully accept that people who read the Guardian are largely intelligent folk, but then to make such comments about other papers and by implication those read who them is far too simplistic. Put another way -I read the Guardian, I must be right, because it is eclectic and the rest of you are thick.

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

Not strange at all. The Guardian is an intelligent paper for people who think - not a comic which sets out to support and proselytise the opinions of its owners. One is reasonably eclectic (though clearly coming from a liberal perspective) the others are not

So, during the week I often read The Sun but I am a long standing Observer reader on Sundays. Where do I sit within your demographic?

 

[sahel]

The arrogance of this statement is beyond belief! I fully accept that people who read the Guardian are largely intelligent folk, but then to make such comments about other papers and by implication those read who them is far too simplistic. Put another way -I read the Guardian, I must be right, because it is eclectic and the rest of you are thick.

I made no comment on the people who read the Sun or Mail. You are implying things not me.However I suspect we are all influenced by what we read however intelligent we are and I would urge readers of the Sun and Mail to think about the damage it might be doing to them

 

[sahel]

So, during the week I often read The Sun but I am a long standing Observer reader on Sundays. Where do I sit within your demographic?

Goodness knows! I don't understand you - what on earth do you get from the Sun?

 

[Hastings gull]

.

So it isn't Joe Bloggs the builder who reads the Daily Mail every day that is the problem, who is led to believe that immigration is the reason he is struggling financially, and will be voting for UKIP even though he'd be even worse off under them - the problem is the system which allows Joe Bloggs to become so misinformed that he will vote against his own interests, just like the rest of the public does.

There are no genuine democratic options for anyone, apart from the rich ruling classes. The problem is the democratic system itself and the corruption and propaganda that surrounds it - we need to modernise this so that our votes can make a difference and improve our quality of lives.

Poor old Joe Bloggs -he needs you to point him in the right direction, but in the quest to help himself he comes up against the usual simplistic statements - he would be worse off under UKIP -how can you possibly be in a position to make such a judgement on UKIP or indeed any party? But poor old Joe is not alone, as the rest of the public apparently do not realise that they are being "misinformed" as they are as thick as Joe. And the solution? - we need to "modernise" democracy. That's clear isn't it Joe? NO, I don't know what this all about, either, Joe . .I think it is something about getting rid of corruption, Joe. I agree, Joe -it would be better if the post actually explained what he means rather than using one slogan after another.

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

Goodness knows! I don't understand you - what on earth do you get from the Sun?

You ask what I get from the Sun without asking anything about the Observer and in one question confirm the narrow minded view you seemed to be able to form of people.

 

[Hastings gull]

I made no comment on the people who read the Sun or Mail. You are implying things not me.However I suspect we are all influenced by what we read however intelligent we are and I would urge readers of the Sun and Mail to think about the damage it might be doing to them

But this time you most certainly are showing the arrogance which you tried to weedle out of just now. What a cheek, to put it mildly, to ask people to reflect on what the Mail might be doing to its readers - might that not equally apply to you? I don't read either paper but would not presume to make such a comment about others. Of course we are all shaped to an extent by what we read, see and experience - and that makes us different, pure and simple. It is clear what the Guardian has done for you.

 

[sahel]

[/U]
But this time you most certainly are showing the arrogance which you tried to weedle out of just now. What a cheek, to put it mildly, to ask people to reflect on what the Mail might be doing to its readers - might that not equally apply to you? I don't read either paper but would not presume to make such a comment about others. Of course we are all shaped to an extent by what we read, see and experience - and that makes us different, pure and simple. It is clear what the Guardian has done for you.

I am making no judgement on anyone. I am though happy to be making a judgement on the views they hold. I'm sure many UKIP voters are nice people and many Guardian readers are really unpleasant. But nice UKIP voters are dangerously deluded and they need to wise up before it's too late. Part of wising up is getting information on issues from a reliable source - not the Sun or Mail