- Oct 19, 2003
- 20,044
ISIS execute 13 football fans by firing squad
- Thread starter carlzeiss
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looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
So when Mohammed slept with his 3rd wife Sophia on the same day he killed her family or when he beheaded 200 jews at Medina and took their money and women, you say this is not islam? You have no problem condemning this behaviour then?
Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
His 3rd Wife was Aisha? Do you The Prophet's (PBUH) 11th wife Safiyya (Sophia?) The killings you are referring to at the Khaybar? (my Islam History isn't what it should be) the father and brother were killed before the marriage, and then married on her choice as part of reconciliation, she was given a choice not to marry him, but chose to convert and marry.
I could say I'm a black man, when you would see me - I'm clearly not, but to myself I am still black. - My question before remains of course it is subjective.
Islam, nor any religion, or non-religious belief / political system is perfect, of course terrible things happened from all faiths and having spoken at length to my friends about what happened at Banu Qurayza (which you refer to as Medina) of course this behaviour is awful, but instead I would choose to take this:
"That if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity."
I said this earlier in the thread, over 98% of Muslims don't support the extreme of Daash and we would be wrong to think this.
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looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
By reconciliation and choice to marry you mean submission to the sword of Islam? In the same way when muslims say Islam means peace they mean when non-muslims submit to muslim rule their will be peace?
Wiki seems to tell a different version.
In May 629, the Muslims defeated several Jewish tribes (including the Banu Nadir) at the Battle of Khaybar. The Jews had surrendered, and were allowed to remain in Khaybar on the provision that they give half of their annual produce to the Muslims. The land itself became the property of the Muslim state.[6] This agreement, Stillman says, did not extend to the Banu Nadir tribe, who were given no quarter.[7] Safiyya's husband, Kenana ibn al-Rabi, was also killed, after having been tortured by fire to reveal the whereabouts of the treasure, according to Ibn Ishaq.[8]
In the aftermath, the female captives were divided amongst Muhammad and his followers........
....When they were brought forth and Muhammad witnessed the beautiful Safiyya, he commanded Dihya, "Go and choose another woman". Safiyya was 17 years old when Muhammad (of 62 years old) consummated with her. Umm Salamah described Saffiya, "I have never seen a more beautiful woman than Safiyya".[9] Safiyya was converted to Islam, thereby becoming Muhammad's wife; her dowry being her emancipation
Doesn't seem like a reconcilliation when her whole tribe was "shown no quarter" and her dowry being her emancipation This is no different to what ISIS do, why are they not proper muslims and yet mohammed is?
How many other religions had prophets that thrived on war booty?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safiyya_bint_Huyayy
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clungemeister
New member
- Jan 11, 2015
- 152
But you can't explain whyHow strange.
did you request an explanation then...
somerset
New member
Where in gods name do you get this 98%...... sorry you even said over 98%..... who canvassed Islam, who published the results?........ I could simply throw in a figure of 60% for consideration, and it would have as much validity as your figure........
Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
So we are accepting you were misinformed by your first posts facts to me?
She actually was given as a choice to return back to another town/city (I can't remember or find the name of it - sorry) and live as a widower.
You say 'when Muslims mean peace' - can we clarify that this view that ALL Muslims want want hard line Sharia in UK and Europe it is quite frankly rubbish. Muslims living in Britain live side by side peacefully in accordance with British law and the Q'uran .
Your statement should read 'when a tiny minority of Muslims (who have incidentally had a fatwa issued upon them by the Imams of the British Council of Muslims) say Islam means peace they mean...'
The facts are as I have stated before are that there are 600 British Daash fighters, if every single one of those fighters had support from about 10/20 people that's between 6,000-12,000 Muslims who would fit into what you have said. There are 2,786,635 UK Muslims, which means that adding Daash fighters and their sympathisers together (at maximum estimates which I have given despite that I highly doubt even 6,000 UK Muslims even support Daash) would still only come to 0.4% of the whole UK Muslim population. Meaning 99.6% of UK Muslims do not fit into your closed minded definition of what a Muslim means when they talk about peace.
Muslims living in non-Muslim countries have to comply with laws of the country they have live in. At the same time, they have to avoid whatever contradicts Islamic teachings. That teaching is in the Q'uran (Have you read it?) - so as I have shown 99.6% of all UK Muslims are peaceful in terms of what today we define as a threat to our security.
Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
I have posted it above with reference to UK Muslims - sorry didn't see you post before typing. They are factual not plucked out of thin air.
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
I have edited my above post. I have read large tracts of the Koran, Bible and Talmud. I have no time for circular arguments like "You cant understand it properly or you would convert".
As for exstremism surveys showed that the percentage of muslims that had a range of sympathies for al-quida was about 27%(Obviously a range can be going with their greivences, or sum. Saying they were right was 15%). Ad the numbers you quote for exstremists would be comparable with the numbers for the IRA.
Except the IRA was waging a limited tactical campaign for a specific aim, they were not a bunch of crazies going for all out slaughter.
As for "peaceful muslims" this helps explain why they are irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
No, the wki edit I included suggests your version is the one way of the mark.
pastafarian
Well-known member
One of these days one of you apologists will quote this correctly and in context.
This saying is meant for The Jews only, Clearly the next verse isnt
For this reason We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoever kills a person, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he had killed all men. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved the lives of all men. And certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them commit excesses in the land.(5:32)
The only punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is that they should be murdered, or crucified, or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. This shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,(5:33)
i have used one translation,but they all say the same thing.
Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
Totally agree with your judgment on the converting side of things. Anyone from any faith can understand and take what they want from each 'book' and is just as qualified to speak about it as any other person of that faith.
As for the wife, wiki seems to skip over that she was given the ability to choose, and just talks about how they got married quickly etc...From what I have read she was given a clear choice of what to do- but of course that is open to debate and we will never know the answer.
The BCOMuslims which represents the vast majority of all UK Muslims (and I can only really speak about the UK here) are clearly against any forms of extremisim so my rebuttal would be that 15% is still much much too high an estimate.
Yes the IRA had an aim, whether it was 'limited and tactical' is another debate in itself. Whether or not we agree with Dassh (we clearly do not) they do have a specific aim - a caliphate. But I do agree about the slaughter part of course.
That video was very interesting, thanks.
Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
I didn't have the whole quote to hand - but my point is still valid, the vast majority of Muslims take the view which I typed, and not the one which you have outlined they might take.
pastafarian
Well-known member
im just pointing out what the good book teaches
Kuipers Supporters Club
Well-known member
And the huge overwhelming majority of British Muslims are peaceful, and only a tiny tiny minority, take a literal approach.
pastafarian
Well-known member
ok chum
whilst your head is down there can you keep an eye out for the bucket and spade i lost a while back
- Jan 3, 2012
- 17,780
Obviously these people are doing what they are doing in the name of Islam, as far as they are concerned. But what they are doing is a complete and utter travesty of what the true religion is all about, much as the Crusades were to Christianity in past times. It is a very twisted interpretation.
But when you say "with his head stuck up his a**e", the implication seems to be that they will just carry on regardless and hope that the "nastiness" will go away if they ignore it for long enough. That is far, far, far from the truth. They are totally in touch with reality and doing all they can to counter the radicalisation thing.