How much is the Referendum Campaign influencing you?

[5ways]

Regrettably, no. It was a decision borne out of my own research.

Own research? I get all my facts straight from campaign HQ. Saves time.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

What I'm saying is that both establishments are deeply flawed. We can go from Labour to Conserative, and back, then back again, continuously for the next 100 years if we choose. But as things stand, they're our only options because our own democracy is fundamentally flawed. The fact of the matter is that I don't vote for the Prime Minister, or even the party that controls our country. I vote for one MP, as we all do. Leaving the EU won't change that. I won't have anymore power as a voter than I currently have. And that's because OUR system is an even bigger issue.

Until that changes, the democratic argument for leaving the EU is totally and utterly mute. If the politicians in this country were that serious about giving voters more power, they'd change the voting system before this referendum takes place. But that argument hasn't even come up because if we leave, the people that gain the most are those in political power in the UK.

A very good point well made.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Own research? I get all my facts straight from campaign HQ. Saves time.

I have a quick look at The Guardian headlines and I'm done.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I agree that the UK voting system is unfair. For example, UKIP won 14% of the popular vote and has 1 MP. SNP 4% and 49 MPs I think. So yes, it's wrong. However, if this gets to be a big enough political issue it could change. What won't change in the EU is the power retained by the political elite who aren't elected.

So, are you happier in a EU where you don't get a real vote (as the power is with the elected Commission), or in an independant UK with a voting system which is flawed? In my opinion, there EU is a way for the elite to control a huge number of people yet be totally unaccountable. That is far, far worse than being in an independant country with a system which would benefit from reform.

Jesus. The power is NOT with the commission. Please read this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Wouldn't have to pay £8.5 Billion yearly membership fee?

The Treasury Select Committee yesterday issued a report rubbishing the campaign on both sides, but particularly singling out the £350m per week claim as being grossly inaccurate. Andrew Tyrie said on the World at One yesterday that they should repainted their battle bus.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Own research? I get all my facts straight from campaign HQ. Saves time.

Facts? From Campaign HQ?

I question your judgement, sir.

 

[Notters]

I agree that the campaigning has been crap from both sides, but thought Remain absolutely rinsed it on yesterday's TV debate, with Leave stumbling on every question.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Boris Johnson is unlikely to be a Tory leader anytime soon. Especially if 'stay' wins.

Gideon has that sown up.

Really?

Grass roots Tories are a pretty Eurosceptic bunch.

 

[cunning fergus]

I have a quick look at The Guardian headlines and I'm done.

Yes, well you would be.........

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6a6aa68-2367-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...es-186m-but-pays-only-200000-tax-8675818.html

 

[cunning fergus]

Jesus. The power is NOT with the commission. Please read this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

If you were honest you would admit that the REAL power behind the EU is global capitalists, the Commission is merely a handmaiden to their interests.

I know is not a problem for those inners who are unashamed free market Tories like you, Hampster Gull, 5ways etc. because you accept this relationship and seek to vigorously defend it from any criticism.

For genuine socialists, and those with progressive intent we understand clearly that the EU is in the grip of rapacious monetarists, and the political will to prevent economic devastation to the poor is unchecked by the existing legislative framework of the EU. That is a fact Margaret and I can prove why........

http://www.anothereurope.org/vote-i...anis-varoufakis-john-mcdonnell-and-many-more/

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-0154-Remain-activists-rally-for-another-Europe

These inners are campaigning today in London to stay in the EU in order to change it from what it is today. For once we can clearly understand what they consider the faults of the EU to be.......and I wholeheartedly agree with them, or at least in relation to democracy any transparency. I don't think they are serving the vested interests of the British working class, but there you are.

Fact is they want to change the EU from an institution that does secret TTIP negotiations to privatise public services, and to resist austerity on the poor by reckless financiers.......etc. At last, honesty about he EU.

The question is however, can they do this? A vote for in is therefore a jump into the dark that they can.

I would argue, as would have Tony Benn, that now is the time too pull the rug from under the feet of the capitalists, a vote out is the only radical step available, a vote in will sadly be seen as endorsing he status quo.

It's that simple.

 

[Murray 17]

For me it's 'Out'.

I think people are massively underestimating the effect that open borders are having on our small island. In 2004 I believe that it was predicted that net immigration would be 20000 a year. It's now well over 300000 and it's not going to reduce. Most of these people are young, so will have children.

So in effect, our population is probably going to increase by 400000 each and every year. Governments don't increase spending on health, education proportionately, so what a mess we're going to be in.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

Started undecided - wanted a balanced argument to let me make an informed choice. Presented with outright untruths from both sides. So.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I was 100% stay at the start of this. I would say I'm 60%-40% in favour of leaving now, but this may change again depending of what lies and hysteria are broadcast to me next. The remain camp need to become far more positive and stop their lies and fearmongering.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

That argument does not address what we would do with the extra cash? How much would it cost us to not be part of the eu? And how much does being part of the eu give us back in return and how does that compare with if we left?
It is not even half an argument it ia just a number with no meaning.

We wouldn't have to pay the membership fee is one of the few arguments/facts (100% accurate) in this entire campaign that we know to be true. As for your follow up points we (the UK) can do whatever we want with it rather than letting the EU spend it. There is no 100% accurate impartial assessment of the costs or benefits of EU membership. There is no 100% accurate impartial assessment of how much better or worse off we would be outside the EU.

The Treasury Select Committee yesterday issued a report rubbishing the campaign on both sides, but particularly singling out the £350m per week claim as being grossly inaccurate. Andrew Tyrie said on the World at One yesterday that they should repainted their battle bus.

Lucky I used our Net contribution - £8.5 Billion then.

 

[c0lz]

Yes, because the Labour Party have never lied... And you do know we're the fifth biggest economy in the world, despite the recession that Labour gave us and left us with by 2010. People have short memories.

lol I think your find financial crisis was worldwide not just the UK. Remember ?

 

[larus]

Jesus. The power is NOT with the commission. Please read this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

Just a snippet from the article.

Through Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union the Commission has several responsibilities: to develop medium-term strategies; to draft legislation and arbitrate in the legislative process; to represent the EU in trade negotiations; to make rules and regulations, for example in competition policy; to draw up the budget of the European Union; and to scrutinise the implementation of the treaties and legislation.[SUP][41][/SUP] The rules of procedure of the European Commission set out the Commission's operation and organisation.

So, this power is with UNELECTED beauocrats. They are creating rules and regulations. They are negotiating trade deals. They are appointed not elected. This, in my opinion, is not democracy; it's a elite club controlling the lives of 500m people. The commisionars can't be removed by the voters.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just a snippet from the article.

Through Article 17 of the Treaty on European Union the Commission has several responsibilities: to develop medium-term strategies; to draft legislation and arbitrate in the legislative process; to represent the EU in trade negotiations; to make rules and regulations, for example in competition policy; to draw up the budget of the European Union; and to scrutinise the implementation of the treaties and legislation.[SUP][41][/SUP] The rules of procedure of the European Commission set out the Commission's operation and organisation.

So, this power is with UNELECTED beauocrats. They are creating rules and regulations. They are negotiating trade deals. They are appointed not elected. This, in my opinion, is not democracy; it's a elite club controlling the lives of 500m people. The commisionars can't be removed by the voters.

I give up.

 

[pasty]

Personally I have found both campaigns absolutely appalling. Both camps are just using hyperbolic scare mongering to try and get your vote, and I find it hard to believe anything either campaign is coming out with. So, and I know it's probably not the best reason, but if the likes of Boris, Farage, Gove and IDS are all backing the leave campaign, I'm voting remain.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If you were honest you would admit that the REAL power behind the EU is global capitalists, the Commission is merely a handmaiden to their interests.

I know is not a problem for those inners who are unashamed free market Tories like you, Hampster Gull, 5ways etc. because you accept this relationship and seek to vigorously defend it from any criticism.

For genuine socialists, and those with progressive intent we understand clearly that the EU is in the grip of rapacious monetarists, and the political will to prevent economic devastation to the poor is unchecked by the existing legislative framework of the EU. That is a fact Margaret and I can prove why........

http://www.anothereurope.org/vote-i...anis-varoufakis-john-mcdonnell-and-many-more/

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-0154-Remain-activists-rally-for-another-Europe

These inners are campaigning today in London to stay in the EU in order to change it from what it is today. For once we can clearly understand what they consider the faults of the EU to be.......and I wholeheartedly agree with them, or at least in relation to democracy any transparency. I don't think they are serving the vested interests of the British working class, but there you are.

Fact is they want to change the EU from an institution that does secret TTIP negotiations to privatise public services, and to resist austerity on the poor by reckless financiers.......etc. At last, honesty about he EU.

The question is however, can they do this? A vote for in is therefore a jump into the dark that they can.

I would argue, as would have Tony Benn, that now is the time too pull the rug from under the feet of the capitalists, a vote out is the only radical step available, a vote in will sadly be seen as endorsing he status quo.

It's that simple.

Will you ever run out of ways to say exactly the same thing?

(HT waits 5 minutes for more of the same thing plus the personal insult Google translated into German)

 

[5ways]

Facts? From Campaign HQ?

I question your judgement, sir.

I'm only joking. I actually get my lines from FT editorials.