How much is the Referendum Campaign influencing you?

[JC Footy Genius]

Taken to it's logical conclusion the world after becoming stronger initially becomes weakened eventually with little or no diversity...bit samey if you like....time to move to another galaxy

I don't think some people have worked out that having next to no control over our border re EU migration rates combined with free movement on the continent plus porous external EU borders is the biggest threat to European 'diversity'.

Hope the Aliens have got a points based immigration system. Voting remain = automatic disqualification.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't think some people have worked out that having next to no control over our border re EU migration rates combined with free movement on the continent plus porous external EU borders is the biggest threat to European 'diversity'.

Hope the Aliens have got a points based immigration system. Voting remain = automatic disqualification.

If we didn't have border controls, there wouldn't be migrant camps in Calais & Dunkirk.

 

[Hampster Gull]

if you cant grasp what he's saying then you are stupid....if you disagree with what he is saying then you are stupid.....you are looking at 3million + immediate immigrants over the next year ....if you don't see a massive dip in general living standards over the next 4 to 5 years then you are also well stupid..!!

His argument is vote remain and lose the ability to pass on inheritance. I stand by my emoji

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If we didn't have border controls, there wouldn't be migrant camps in Calais & Dunkirk.

Migrant camps aren't full of EU citizens. We have no control over EU migration rates.

As for those who are not EU citizens living in Europe I'm sure the vast majority of the one million plus migrants/refugees that were welcomed into Germany will be granted citizenship at some point.

 

[Soulman]

Some good points.

Why is independence important?
Every country needs independence for the same reason why every house needs party walls. Not because our neighbours are evil, or because we are mean, parochial or insular, but because we need to effectively organise our own lives. Conversely, being in The EU is like knocking down the party walls between our homes but on a much bigger scale – it doesn’t make us more united, liberal, prosperous, safe or influential, it just turns the simplest decision into an endless technical negotiation.

But Britain would lose influence if we left.
Influence to do what? Can you imagine a friendship where one person craves influence over the other? Of course not, because that’s not a description of a friendship but a power struggle in which the weak obey the strong. Within the EU Germany has influence over Greece but Greece has no influence over Germany. To govern people like this isn’t just impractical, it’s cruel. It is arrogance to impose on another and it is pathetic to be imposed upon, which is probably why the ‘influence’ argument has completely hypnotised our political leaders.

But Europe passes laws to advance equality, social justice and environmental protection.
Oh. They gave us rights? Britain pioneered equality and environmental law years before joining the EU. We passed the Equal Pay Act in 1970. We passed the Race Relations Act in 1965. We passed the Clean Air Act in 1956. We decriminalised homosexuality in 1967. Britain gave women the vote before France, Spain or Italy, and slightly before Germany in 1918 and Magna Carta set out a charter of rights 700 years before the treaty of Rome. We became liberal before we joined, since we joined the only thing that has been libersalised is Market Capitalism, which is why the richest want change the least.

Tom Paine said “the greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes” and indeed this is the case with the EU – as our ability to democratically hold the powerful to account is eroded we are constantly assured that the EU is ‘progressive‘.

But leaving would cut us off from the Common Market.
Of course it wouldn’t. We would just carry on trading exactly as we do now, in precisely the same way that we trade with the USA, India, Canada, New Zealand and Australia since they declared independence from us.

Read on.........
https://theblueanchor.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/why-britain-should-be-independent/

 

[Hampster Gull]

Immigrants contributing to our economy leading to a massive dip in general living standards. I don't understand it.

Stupid

Our GPD per Capita is massively higher than it was when we joined the EU and since the freedom of movement in 1992. Happy days

 

[Soulman]

“Communism run by commissars from Moscow did not work, and nor will capitalism run by commissioners in Brussels. Both deny people their right to develop in their own way” Tony Benn 1966

“Cyprus should leave the Euro now” Paul Krugman 2013

“everything good about the EU is in retreat; everything bad is on the rampage” George Monibot 2015

“The only sense lies in exit” Simon Jenkins. Guardian 2013

Have It

In the 40 years before we joined, Britain stood against fascism, set up the NHS and welfare state and rebuilt our shattered country, libralised our society, pioneered environmental law, became multicultural, criminalised prejudice, and decriminalised homosexuality. But in the 40 years since Britain has achieved nothing comparable. Since we joined the EU what big social breakthroughs have we made? Where are the great reform acts? Name them.

I present to you a nation in decline: Since Britain joined the EU, inequality has increased, pollution has increased, terrorism has increased and debt has increased. Since Britain joined the EU have our towns and countryside become more beautiful? Do we now care for pensioners better? And do we now raise more well educated children to support future pensioners? Are the army, navy or air force better? The police? The Civil Service? The Home Office, Lords or judiciary? In the last 40 years has any institution of state been successfully reformed? Has Britain set up a National Education Service? No. When Britain joined the EU you got a grant to go to college, now you get a loan to go to college. Has Britain confronted the energy crisis? No. Since joining the EU we wasted North Sea oil, and shut the coal mines so we could buy fuel from tyrants. 40 years ago we had a steel industry, 40 years ago we had a fishing industry, 40 years ago we built ships. When Britain joined the EU we made things, today we lead unhealthy sedentary lives, filing files and following procedure. That’s not prestige, that’s decline, and while it would be petty to blame all the ills of the modern world on the EU, Britain’s decline clearly stems from our failure to govern ourselves in an adult way. 40 years ago British elections were a meaningful battles about ideas, but now you have a meaningless ‘choice’ of mood music between career politicians who have never had propper jobs, and who all have the same background, education and views and policies.

 

[5ways]

Some good points.

Why is independence important?
Every country needs independence for the same reason why every house needs party walls. Not because our neighbours are evil, or because we are mean, parochial or insular, but because we need to effectively organise our own lives. Conversely, being in The EU is like knocking down the party walls between our homes but on a much bigger scale – it doesn’t make us more united, liberal, prosperous, safe or influential, it just turns the simplest decision into an endless technical negotiation.

But Britain would lose influence if we left.
Influence to do what? Can you imagine a friendship where one person craves influence over the other? Of course not, because that’s not a description of a friendship but a power struggle in which the weak obey the strong. Within the EU Germany has influence over Greece but Greece has no influence over Germany. To govern people like this isn’t just impractical, it’s cruel. It is arrogance to impose on another and it is pathetic to be imposed upon, which is probably why the ‘influence’ argument has completely hypnotised our political leaders.

But Europe passes laws to advance equality, social justice and environmental protection.
Oh. They gave us rights? Britain pioneered equality and environmental law years before joining the EU. We passed the Equal Pay Act in 1970. We passed the Race Relations Act in 1965. We passed the Clean Air Act in 1956. We decriminalised homosexuality in 1967. Britain gave women the vote before France, Spain or Italy, and slightly before Germany in 1918 and Magna Carta set out a charter of rights 700 years before the treaty of Rome. We became liberal before we joined, since we joined the only thing that has been libersalised is Market Capitalism, which is why the richest want change the least.

Tom Paine said “the greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes” and indeed this is the case with the EU – as our ability to democratically hold the powerful to account is eroded we are constantly assured that the EU is ‘progressive‘.

But leaving would cut us off from the Common Market.
Of course it wouldn’t. We would just carry on trading exactly as we do now, in precisely the same way that we trade with the USA, India, Canada, New Zealand and Australia since they declared independence from us.

Read on.........
https://theblueanchor.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/why-britain-should-be-independent/

Wrong.

3) The World Trade Organisation option

The way we trade with the US, India etc is the WTO model.

What is it: Britain would not sign a standalone trade deal with the EU but instead rely on tariff levels set by the World Trade Organistion.

GDP: 7.5% lower (than if UK stayed in EU).
Annual cost per household: £5,200
Annual lost tax revenue: £45bn

Former WTO head

""The WTO would not give the right to provide services," he warned.
"At the moment the banking system of Britain provides services all over Europe because by being part of the European Union they have what's called a single passport and they can operate everywhere.
"If Britain left the European Union it would not have a single passport and many financial services companies might say 'we can't have our headquarters in a country that is outside the European Union' and they might well move.
"This would be a huge blow to the British economy," he told Wake Up to Money."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36401578

Other points are, imo, fluff.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Our GPD per Capita is massively higher than it was when we joined the EU and since the freedom of movement in 1992. Happy days

Strangely enough our GDP per capita has followed a similar path to Australia and Canada over the last 50 years virtually identical in 1992, although both have been outperforming us in recent years. The US has consistently performed much better. Switzerland had been miles ahead before having access to the single market.

Anyone would think membership of the EU/having freedom of movement isn't that relevant after all. Independent nations with the freedom to make their own trade deals seem to do ok ... who'd have thunk it.

 

[cunning fergus]

Have you been on the sauce early this bank holiday monday? There have been waves of migrants to these shores over the centuries, helping shape and forge this country. What has this got to do with inheritance, taxation and private education?

What waves?

This country has been subject to waves of invaders......are you seriously suggesting the Vikings, Romans, Normans et al just popped across the channel and set up here without any problems for those that were living here at the time?

As for immigration more generally, up until the last 20 years the history of this country was of emigration. We only need to look around the world to see the British diaspora.

If you were right, places like Leicester would have been plural for centuries, they weren't though.

If you think otherwise you must be on drugs.

 

[cunning fergus]

His argument is vote remain and lose the ability to pass on inheritance. I stand by my emoji

By all means vote remain, you are a Tory so it stands to reason you have no concerns with the impact of mass migration on the working class who are having to compete for services (housing, school places, health services etc.) with these newcomers.

However, if you vote remain and want to disregard this impact on the poor with glib platitudes such as "we are all immigrants" then, at that point you should not be either accepting or passing on any inheritance.

The irony of this position of course, is that's it the rich who have inheritance, the same cohort that will extol the benefits of mass migration.

They say other stuff like "we are all in it together"............wankers.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

The only "fact" to be gleaned from the campaign is that we don't know the future and the best & most experienced minds can totally disagree. So vote with your gut. I am for OUT

 

[Hampster Gull]

Strangely enough our GDP per capita has followed a similar path to Australia and Canada over the last 50 years virtually identical in 1992, although both have been outperforming us in recent years. The US has consistently performed much better. Switzerland had been miles ahead before having access to the single market.

Anyone would think membership of the EU/having freedom of movement isn't that relevant after all. Independent nations with the freedom to make their own trade deals seem to do ok ... who'd have thunk it.

Australia and Canada have both benefited disportionatlry on recent years due to the great mineral wealth. The USA benefits from. a vibrant immigrant population. Switzerland is a bit unique

 

[Hampster Gull]

What waves?

This country has been subject to waves of invaders......are you seriously suggesting the Vikings, Romans, Normans et al just popped across the channel and set up here without any problems for those that were living here at the time?

As for immigration more generally, up until the last 20 years the history of this country was of emigration. We only need to look around the world to see the British diaspora.

If you were right, places like Leicester would have been plural for centuries, they weren't though.

If you think otherwise you must be on drugs.

There have been many more waves. Jews, Huguenots, Commonwealth etc. No drugs, just a very nice two course meal i made thanks

 

[jaghebby]

“Communism run by commissars from Moscow did not work, and nor will capitalism run by commissioners in Brussels. Both deny people their right to develop in their own way” Tony Benn 1966

“Cyprus should leave the Euro now” Paul Krugman 2013

“everything good about the EU is in retreat; everything bad is on the rampage” George Monibot 2015

“The only sense lies in exit” Simon Jenkins. Guardian 2013

Have It

In the 40 years before we joined, Britain stood against fascism, set up the NHS and welfare state and rebuilt our shattered country, libralised our society, pioneered environmental law, became multicultural, criminalised prejudice, and decriminalised homosexuality. But in the 40 years since Britain has achieved nothing comparable. Since we joined the EU what big social breakthroughs have we made? Where are the great reform acts? Name them.

I present to you a nation in decline: Since Britain joined the EU, inequality has increased, pollution has increased, terrorism has increased and debt has increased. Since Britain joined the EU have our towns and countryside become more beautiful? Do we now care for pensioners better? And do we now raise more well educated children to support future pensioners? Are the army, navy or air force better? The police? The Civil Service? The Home Office, Lords or judiciary? In the last 40 years has any institution of state been successfully reformed? Has Britain set up a National Education Service? No. When Britain joined the EU you got a grant to go to college, now you get a loan to go to college. Has Britain confronted the energy crisis? No. Since joining the EU we wasted North Sea oil, and shut the coal mines so we could buy fuel from tyrants. 40 years ago we had a steel industry, 40 years ago we had a fishing industry, 40 years ago we built ships. When Britain joined the EU we made things, today we lead unhealthy sedentary lives, filing files and following procedure. That’s not prestige, that’s decline, and while it would be petty to blame all the ills of the modern world on the EU, Britain’s decline clearly stems from our failure to govern ourselves in an adult way. 40 years ago British elections were a meaningful battles about ideas, but now you have a meaningless ‘choice’ of mood music between career politicians who have never had propper jobs, and who all have the same background, education and views and policies.[/QUOTE

Lets see if there is a riposte to some of your unfounded assertions!

“Inequality has increased” how do you work that out gay marriage is now acceptable and people can be openly gay!

“Pollution has increased” maybe but because we are more affluent there are more cars, lorries on the on the roads causing more pollution! Less pollution from burning coal for power though see further down.

“Terrorism has increased” no it hasn’t didn’t you live through Irish terrorism?

“Debt has increased” but that has nothing to do with the EU that’s due to relaxation of credit controls and governments borrowing not the EU.

“Towns and countryside become more beautiful” and you really believe that is down to the EU?

“Do we now care for pensioners better” hang about then how come people are living longer must be something to do with better care and better life styles?

“Do we now raise more well educated children to support future pensioners” more young people go to University than ever before?

“Are the army, navy or air force better?” Well yes they have as equipment is infinitely better and much more capable. Although, cuts in the last parliament have had an impact but again that is nothing to do with the EU.


“The police? The Civil Service? The Home Office, Lords or judiciary?” What evidence have you for this none I would expect?

“In the last 40 years has any institution of state been successfully reformed?” Well there is now devolution in Scotland and Wales and power sharing in Northern Ireland. Other institutions have evolved rather than whole sale reformed.

“Has Britain set up a National Education Service?” What has that got to do with the EU?

“When Britain joined the EU you got a grant to go to college, now you get a loan to go to college.” More people got to university than ever before. This has been helped by the loan system which has helped fund the expansion of university places. In Scotland for instance where there are no tuition fees they have a fixed budget so cannot expand the universities so fewer people from poorer back grounds can got to uni than in England where there are tuition fees!

“Has Britain confronted the energy crisis?” No. Thats why we are building wind farms, installing solar panels, using energy more efficiently requiring new buildings to be more energy efficient etc etc!.
“Since joining the EU we wasted North Sea oil” Wasted no we have used it!

“shut the coal mines” Coal is a very dirty fuel and expensive especially after the country was held to ransom by the miners remember that!

“40 years ago we had a steel industry” – heavily subsidised by the tax payer new industries have taken their place such as computing and software design.

"40 years ago we had a fishing industry" – you can still buy fish in super markets?

"40 years ago we built ships". Korea and places like that build them better and last time I looked Korea aren’t in the EU.

“When Britain joined the EU we made things” We still do have a very successful car industry that is a massive export success! We build the best aero engines in the world. We can still build aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines just a few examples about building things!

“Today we lead unhealthy sedentary lives, filing files and following procedure” what the hell has got to do with the EU thats because the world has changed and technology we didn’t have personal computers or the world wide web 40 years ago!

So I don't recognise the decline you speak of more people than ever before are in work and we are the 5th largest economy in the world so how does that demonstrate a decline? London is the best city in the world and a financial centre up there with the best. You are either looking at history through rose tinted glasses or just possibly and idiot. I am sorry but I am strongly leaning towards the latter.

 

[Hampster Gull]

By all means vote remain, you are a Tory so it stands to reason you have no concerns with the impact of mass migration on the working class who are having to compete for services (housing, school places, health services etc.) with these newcomers.

However, if you vote remain and want to disregard this impact on the poor with glib platitudes such as "we are all immigrants" then, at that point you should not be either accepting or passing on any inheritance.

The irony of this position of course, is that's it the rich who have inheritance, the same cohort that will extol the benefits of mass migration.

They say other stuff like "we are all in it together"............wankers.

You want to raise the red flag but those days have long gone

 

[Hampster Gull]

The only "fact" to be gleaned from the campaign is that we don't know the future and the best & most experienced minds can totally disagree. So vote with your gut. I am for OUT

I see very few of the worlds or the UKs "most experienced minds" for Brexit, and certainly far less than Remain. But i respect your gut

 

[cunning fergus]

There have been many more waves. Jews, Huguenots, Commonwealth etc. No drugs, just a very nice two course meal i made thanks

This country has long been a country of emigration, pointing to the fact that a few hundred thousand Protestants and Russian Jews arrived over the last 200 - 300 years is not any kind of precedent of the situation today.

Unless of course you think that white British people have always been a minority in London.

 

[cunning fergus]

You want to raise the red flag but those days have long gone

To some extent you are right, the rich and powerful will always find a way to oppress the poor and powerless, plus ca change. There has not been a socialist political movement in the UK since Blair removed clause 4 and sadly Corbyn has reneged on his long held belief.

That however does not mean that this dynamic is right, and there are plenty of signs of electorates across the EU are rejecting the consequences of the EU's neo liberal agenda which supports global capitalism and imposes grinding austerity.

Brexit may not happen, but this referendum will leave a heavy imprint on British politics which will continue to fester............this coup,ed with all the problems the EU will have resolving the euro crisis just means it may have to be a longer game, in the end the EU is doomed.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Given once we are 'out' we can't go back, I think it's up to the leave campaign to come up with a compelling case to leave. I don't think they have done this

We were once out?........come now do you think we would be banished to hell forever....