How do you think Boris has handled it so far ?

[Wrong-Direction]

I really wish I was part of the majority, completely naive and oblivious to everything going on around them. It's quite sad being on the other side.

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[RossyG]

This response to RossyG's post is through the looking glass. Ross posts something without any proof, based on nothing but his 'suspicion', claiming it is reality, and then you seem to agree with him and claim that people you disagree with don't 'deal with reality'.

Remind me what the definition of 'reality' is

Reality is knowing that sometimes figures released by governments, for various reasons, aren’t always factual.

For example, I imagine (or if you prefer: have a suspicion) that China, Iran, and Russia are underplaying the real death figures. I can’t prove it other than point to circumstantial evidence, which is why I’m careful with language. I don’t claim it’s reality, but I have a strong suspicion that it might be the case.

I also think that a sizeable minority of ours and America’s death cases are due to death with Coronavirus and not of Coronavirus.

In America, hospitals actually get more money if a death is attributed to Coronavirus. This isn’t proof that they’re putting that down in cases of old age or flu/pneumonia, but it’s enough to make me wonder, to imagine, to suspect...

 

[RossyG]

Pair of wallys

Outside of personal abuse and impotent rage you don't have a lot going for yourself, either.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Reality is knowing that sometimes figures released by governments, for various reasons, aren’t always factual.

For example, I imagine (or if you prefer: have a suspicion) that China, Iran, and Russia are underplaying the real death figures. I can’t prove it other than point to circumstantial evidence, which is why I’m careful with language. I don’t claim it’s reality, but I have a strong suspicion that it might be the case.

I also think that a sizeable minority of ours and America’s death cases are due to death with Coronavirus and not of Coronavirus.

In America, hospitals actually get more money if a death is attributed to Coronavirus. This isn’t proof that they’re putting that down in cases of old age or flu/pneumonia, but it’s enough to make me wonder, to imagine, to suspect...

Okay what about our direct European neighbours, is everyone apart from us suppressing their figures? Are you trying to suggest ours are the only ‘honest’ figures?

I certainly agree statistics will be counted in different ways between different countries, but given we had preparation ahead of many countries, our statistics are worthy of real scrutiny. Your head is completely in the sand if you believe the government’s strategies are beyond reproach.

 

[Bodian]

Outside of the pandemic, they are good, really good, at messaging. Especially simple slogans: Take Back Control; Get Brexit Done. I'm obviously referring to the current lot, and particularly Johnson and Cummings (I wouldn't say the same for May, for instance). Step back into CV19, and their core message of 'Stay at Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives' has been widely accepted as being extremely effective. (Although perhaps not by you.)

They are very effective at simple sloganeering. Not so good at actually getting the correct information and consistent message across - just witness BJ with his 'It's vital you stay at home on Sunday.....I'm hoping to see my Mum' type contradictions - amongst others.

 

[Bodian]

We're Europe's number 1:


The UK now has the highest death toll in Europe from coronavirus after new official figures revealed that more than 32,000 people have died from the virus.

The Office for National Statistics said 29,648 deaths had taken place by 27 April in England and Wales with Covid-19 mentioned in death certificates.

With the addition of deaths in Scotland and Northern Ireland, this takes the UK’s death toll to 32,313, according to calculations by Reuters.

This figure far exceeds the death toll of 29,029 in Italy – until now Europe’s worst-hit country. Italy’s total does not include suspected cases.

He did annoy me in his press briefing last week when he kept saying things like 'we've done fantastically well, and haven't seen the issues that we saw so graphically in other countries' and so on. When quite clearly we have seen as many / more deaths than other countries.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

Outside of the pandemic, they are good, really good, at messaging. Especially simple slogans: Take Back Control; Get Brexit Done. I'm obviously referring to the current lot, and particularly Johnson and Cummings (I wouldn't say the same for May, for instance). Step back into CV19, and their core message of 'Stay at Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives' has been widely accepted as being extremely effective. (Although perhaps not by you.)

I agree with Take Back Control and Get Brexit Done being effective, but I think the self-congratulation by the government over the effectiveness of the CV-19 slogan is bit much. It seems to me that a concern of catching/spreading a fatal virus, and the action of shutting down of workplaces/schools/pubs etc, might have been a bigger factor in people staying home than the messaging. The other two were reductionist arguments that you would hear/see people repeat over and over (and still do), I've not heard anybody outside of the government advertising say the CV-19 slogan.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

We're Europe's number 1:


The UK now has the highest death toll in Europe from coronavirus after new official figures revealed that more than 32,000 people have died from the virus.

The Office for National Statistics said 29,648 deaths had taken place by 27 April in England and Wales with Covid-19 mentioned in death certificates.

With the addition of deaths in Scotland and Northern Ireland, this takes the UK’s death toll to 32,313, according to calculations by Reuters.

This figure far exceeds the death toll of 29,029 in Italy – until now Europe’s worst-hit country. Italy’s total does not include suspected cases.

Are we? That Guardian piece also mentions ...

Ministers and experts have warned against international comparisons, saying the figure for excess mortality – the number of deaths from all causes that exceed the average for the time of year – is a more meaningful gauge...

Jenny Harris, the deputy chief medical officer for England, warned against international comparisons.

Speaking to MPs minutes after the ONS figures were released, she said: “It is extremely difficult to compare between countries at the moment. We need to not just look at the numbers clearly, but at the rates. The obvious one is age and standardised death rates per million population. Those are not the numbers that are routinely reported, so it is really difficult to do direct comparisons.”

The same article shows we are fourth if comparing deaths per 100,000 people. Numerous articles and experts have cautioned comparing international death rates for very good reason.

Italy's coronavirus death toll far higher than reported - stats office

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-h...gher-than-reported-stats-office-idUKKBN22G1XB

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...how-does-britain-compare-with-other-countries

 

[The Clamp]

Outside of personal abuse and impotent rage you don't have a lot going for yourself, either.

I’m not abusing you. I’m describing you.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Are we? That Guardian piece also mentions ...

Ministers and experts have warned against international comparisons, saying the figure for excess mortality – the number of deaths from all causes that exceed the average for the time of year – is a more meaningful gauge...

Jenny Harris, the deputy chief medical officer for England, warned against international comparisons.

Speaking to MPs minutes after the ONS figures were released, she said: “It is extremely difficult to compare between countries at the moment. We need to not just look at the numbers clearly, but at the rates. The obvious one is age and standardised death rates per million population. Those are not the numbers that are routinely reported, so it is really difficult to do direct comparisons.”

The same article shows we are fourth if comparing deaths per 100,000 people. Numerous articles and experts have cautioned comparing international death rates for very good reason.

Italy's coronavirus death toll far higher than reported - stats office

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-h...gher-than-reported-stats-office-idUKKBN22G1XB

It’s true, we also have one of the highest populated cities in the world to take in account, however none of the above absolves the government’s adhoc, slow and indecisive handling of the early stages when we had a month’s notice from Italy. I go back to [MENTION=205]Tom Hark, Preston Park[/MENTION] who got it spot on early doors when I too was trying to rationalise the government’s policy decisions.

 

[RossyG]

Okay what about our direct European neighbours, is everyone apart from us suppressing their figures? Are you trying to suggest ours are the only ‘honest’ figures?

I certainly agree statistics will be counted in different ways between different countries, but given we had preparation ahead of many countries, our statistics are worthy of real scrutiny. Your head is completely in the sand if you believe the government’s strategies are beyond reproach.

I don’t think the government’s strategies are beyond reproach at all. Example: they lock us down but thousands of people are flying in every week? What’s that about? I think this lockdown could create more problems than it solves too. It’s not a cure, just a delay.

I don’t think many Western European countries are deliberately scheming to downplay the figures. But it takes a while to collate them and it’s a fact some doctors are writing Coronavirus on death certificates when the deceased hasn’t been tested. For that reason, I don’t think our figures are a true reflection of deaths directly from Covid-19.

 

[RossyG]

I’m not abusing you. I’m describing you.

I always try to be polite with people on this site, even if they hold very different views from me, but - as we all know - some people are just out for trouble. So it goes...

 

[The Clamp]

I always try to be polite with people on this site, even if they hold very different views from me, but - as we all know - some people are just out for trouble. So it goes...

You posted unsubstantiated nonsense. You got called a wally. Get over it.

Nevertheless, I take your point. I apologise for name calling. Onwards..

 

[beorhthelm]

What I suggest Vallance meant was that the 20k related to excess deaths above the 5 year average. I think we are close to that but not sure that we have exceeded it yet.

we wont know either until later in the year or next. week on week it looks terrible, year on year it may not show at all.

 

[nicko31]

I really wish I was part of the majority, completely naive and oblivious to everything going on around them. It's quite sad being on the other side.

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A decade of austerity with three and a half years of self indulgence. Will people finally realise the the emperor has no clothes?

 

[daveinplzen]

The government was negligent.

 

[Machiavelli]

They are very effective at simple sloganeering. Not so good at actually getting the correct information and consistent message across - just witness BJ with his 'It's vital you stay at home on Sunday.....I'm hoping to see my Mum' type contradictions - amongst others.

As if it wasn't entirely predictable, Johnson is being shown to be dreadful on detail, nonchalant, and treating the inhabitants as pawns in one of the games he got taught at Eton.

 

[Machiavelli]

I agree with Take Back Control and Get Brexit Done being effective, but I think the self-congratulation by the government over the effectiveness of the CV-19 slogan is bit much. It seems to me that a concern of catching/spreading a fatal virus, and the action of shutting down of workplaces/schools/pubs etc, might have been a bigger factor in people staying home than the messaging. The other two were reductionist arguments that you would hear/see people repeat over and over (and still do), I've not heard anybody outside of the government advertising say the CV-19 slogan.

Yes, I did indicate the other day that the real challenge will emerge in the relaxation of the lockdown, which will require subtle, nuanced and complex messaging. All this suggests that Johnson will be looking down when giving his briefings, reading from a script. Or, at the very least, I hope this is what happens.

 

[The Clamp]

Boris will emerge a hero by the time his spin doctors have gone to work on this whole negligent mess. As his followers chant “nobody could have been prepared for this.”
Maybe not but actually reading the 2016 exercise findings that we were woefully under stocked on ppe and advising an earlier, stricter lockdown might have been a good ****ing start ?

 

[Machiavelli]

It seems Johnson's comments about being willing to shake CV19 victims by the hand were delivered just after SAGE had advised against hand-shaking. I wonder how that fits in with the "guided by the science" mantra?