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Good Time Article - World Cup



Mellotron

I've asked for soup
Jul 2, 2008
33,137
Brighton
Interesting article from the Times regarding how important LUCK can be in Tournaments:...

More than any other sport, football is routinely decided by matters beyond a competitor's control. So while we get force-fed 44 years of hurt all that, it is worth remembering that we are not as bad as our luck would have us believe. Take Italia 90 when Chris Waddle beat Bodo Ilgner in the German goal in extra time only for the ball to hit the post and bounce away to safety. Had that bounced in then England would have gone to the World Cup Final and we would now view ourselves very differently.

When England next made a World Cup in 1998, they went out to Argentina because the referee controversially disallowed a Sol Campbell goal. At Euro 2004, Campbell scored again. This time the referee adjudged John Terry to have fouled the Portuguese goalkeeper. The same goalkeeper who then scored the winning penalty in the shootout to take Portugal to the semis.

It goes back further. Just how did the referee fail to spot Diego Maradona's decisive handball in the 1986 quarter-finals? How did in-pomp Gary Lineker then fail to connect with a header from two yards out and, thus, send that game to extra-time. "Yeeesss!" Barry Davies cried on the commentary. "Nooo!," he quickly added, neatly summarising the yin and yang of England football.

There has been good luck, too, notably in the 1966 final and then, 30 years later, when England were gifted a win, on penalties, over Spain in the Euro 96 quarter-finals. That was all about Stuart Pearce's catharsis, Three Lions, 30 years of hurt. We quickly forgot Spain's two goals disallowed and two ignored penalty appeals.

The World Cup will, in all probability, be decided by luck. All you really need to be in with a shout is a decent bunch of players in an organised system (and preferably a good defence). Greece in 2004 and Italy in 2006 could scarcely claim to have been the best teams at those years' tournaments, but they still became European and world champions.

Indeed, ten-men Italy needed a very suspect last-minute penalty against Australia to progress from the second round in 2006. The man who was tripped/dived, Fabio Grosso, would score the winning penalty in the final. Funny old game.

Malcolm Gladwell, in his book Outliers, suggests luck and hard work can produce genius. It is a scientific thesis based on the old Gary Player maxim that the harder you practice, the luckier you get. But do these things even themselves out over a season? Do you make your own luck?

Liverpool's triumph in the 2005 Champions League Final was a fantastic story and a tribute to Steven Gerrard's inspirational qualities. However, the bottom line is Liverpool were in the final because they beat Chelsea with a goal that clearly did not cross the line. And many referees would not have awarded Gerrard a penalty when he tumbled dramatically during the revival in Instanbul. Xabi Alonso missed that penalty but the ball bounced back off the keeper to him. That may be construed as making your own luck by being in the right position, but Liverpool had nothing to do with Shevchenko missing from five yards.

In the seven World Cup Finals England have played in since 1966 they have never gone out by more than a single goal. In 1982 they were unbeaten. In 1990, 1998 and 2006 they went out on penalties. Of the rest Sir Alf Ramsey made a bad substitution, Maradona cheated and Ronaldinho scored a freak-cum-wonder goal.

The margin between success and failure is clearly very small when you are one of the best eight sides in the world, as England routinely are, and so it stands to reason that the role of luck will be amplified. So forget the debates about Walcott and Lennon and 4-5-1, the question Fabio Capello needs to ask himself is does he feel lucky. Well, do you?
 
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keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
10,238
So us not getting away with fouls or being able to score from close range is a sign of luck?
 


Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,321
We've def been one of the most unluckiest teams in recent torno's - considering we've almost always gone out on pens / suffered from poor ref decisions - like red cars in 98 and 06... So yes you do need some luck and we def deserve some!
 


Chesney Christ

New member
Sep 3, 2003
4,301
Location, Location
Although I'm not sure I buy the whole "England are always unlucky" stuff, I've never understood the "England are just not good enough" bullshit that people - unable to form actual worthwhile and thought-out opinions - so tiresomely and lazily trot out.

Out of all the World Cups in my lifetime that we have qualified for (6), we have gone out of 1 without losing a single game (82), we have gone out of 3 after draws (losing on penalties does not make a team sh*t!!) and gone out of the other 2 by a single goal. "Shit" teams would be losing 3 or 4-0. Losing by 1 goal or on penalties is not a shit performance.

In the SIX World Cups mentioned above, we have lost a grand total of FOUR matches. Not necessarily "unlucky" but hardly rubbish is it?
 


Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,321
Sam - Just remember some people love to be as negative and controversial as possible - esp some on here... Ignore them and live in hope like I will be...
 






Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,321
2 weeks to go!!!!
 


Man of Harveys

Well-known member
Jul 9, 2003
19,269
Brighton, UK
What a really, really stupid article. Dislike.
 




Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
59,241
hassocks
I dont agree about the 98 and 2004 being unlucky, I thought both goals where rightly disallowed.

Playing devils advocate didnt the germans smash the post in the semi in 1990?

96 was an arse for luck though
 


Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,321
I dont agree about the 98 and 2004 being unlucky, I thought both goals where rightly disallowed.

Playing devils advocate didnt the germans smash the post in the semi in 1990?

96 was an arse for luck though

I meant Beckham's sending off in 98 - and Rooneys in 06 was debateable - that to me is bad luck.

Anyway - as I said let's not be negative
 


Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
59,241
hassocks
I meant Beckham's sending off in 98 - and Rooneys in 06 was debateable - that to me is bad luck.

Anyway - as I said let's not be negative

Sadly For Becks he would of got away with that in The English League but not on the world stage, so yeah he was unlucky.

Not sure about Rooney though, I think lots of people thought it was debatable because of who it was on and against!
 




HseagullsH

NSC's tipster
May 15, 2008
3,192
Brighton
Without reading the articly, I completely agree that luck is a major factor.

Once you get to the knock out stages, luck plays a LARGE part on who wins the tournament.

I don't believe any team is capable of outclassing their opponents every match. IMO, you can't win a world cup without riding your luck along the way..
 


hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
63,454
Chandlers Ford
I meant Beckham's sending off in 98 - and Rooneys in 06 was debateable - that to me is bad luck.

Anyway - as I said let's not be negative


Rooney and Beckham were both idiots, and rightly sent off. No point blaming the ref.
 


Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,321
Yeh I can see why Rooney went but he came out and said straight away and in his book that he didn't mean it and it was an accident - guess we'll never know...
 




Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,321
Rooney and Beckham were both idiots, and rightly sent off. No point blaming the ref.

Disagree with Beckham - and Simeone's subsequent addmission that he's a cheating little Argie c.unt backs that up. It was stupid but never a red card
 


hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
63,454
Chandlers Ford
Disagree with Beckham - and Simeone's subsequent addmission that he's a cheating little Argie c.unt backs that up. It was stupid but never a red card

Simeone DID cheat by going down, and pretending to be hurt, but that doesn't alter the fact that Beckham kicked out at him. Much as I love Beckham, the rules are perfectly clear, and its a definite straight red. No argument.
 


Chesney Christ

New member
Sep 3, 2003
4,301
Location, Location
I dont agree about the 98 and 2004 being unlucky, I thought both goals where rightly disallowed.

Correct. Shearer elbowed the keeper in 98 before Campbell scored, and Terry was all over the Portugese keeper in 2004. Not sure why people have a problem with these decisions. I also have a mate who still insists that Rooney was unlucky to be sent off for STAMPING on Carvalho's BOLLOCKS....
 


hans kraay fan club

The voice of reason.
Helpful Moderator
Mar 16, 2005
63,454
Chandlers Ford
Correct. Shearer elbowed the keeper in 98 before Campbell scored, and Terry was all over the Portugese keeper in 2004. Not sure why people have a problem with these decisions. I also have a mate who still insists that Rooney was unlucky to be sent off for STAMPING on Carvalho's BOLLOCKS....

No, You have TWO mates who think that - reading Sheebo's posts above.
 






Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,321
Simeone DID cheat by going down, and pretending to be hurt, but that doesn't alter the fact that Beckham kicked out at him. Much as I love Beckham, the rules are perfectly clear, and its a definite straight red. No argument.

mmm there was barley contact tho - his leg moved at an angle where there could hardly be any force but yes i understand you'll say it doesn't matter how hard it was it's the rules etc... To me (yes with my Eng glasses on :) ) it wasn't a sending off but hey ho - Roll on 2 weeks
 


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