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[Politics] General Election 2024 - 4th July



WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
26,703
They just can’t help themselves, can they.


A Magistrate as well.


And what sort of background checks are they going to make on the other 100+ that have to be selected by tomorrow. They can't even get this simple thing right despite being the only political party that actually knew when the election was going to be :facepalm:

This whole campaign is bringing into the public eye the complete and utter incompetence which has been at every level of the Party since Johnson got in, got rid of all the experienced ministers and bought in complete incompetent amateurs like Sunak, Truss, Braverman, Kwarteng etc etc. It has been blindingly obvious since the very beginning of Johnson and his subsequent various appointees 'reign' :shrug:
 




Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,175
Fiveways
I'm not either of them, but surely can't be alone in thinking that if Rory Stewart had won the Tory leadership instead of Boris the country would have been far better run, we wouldn't have had Truss and Sunak foisted on us, we'd probably still be in the Customs Union and the Tories would be competitive in this election.

Sure, centrism has to have some compromise in it, but when you're compromising away from tanking the economy with unfunded tax cuts, yelling at immigrants and pissed up pandemic parties I'd say the notions of compromise, thought, gravitas and service that Stewart would have brought would convince many that the centre ground offers a lot, whether it's centre-right One Nation Tories, the LDs or Kier. No, there's not much between them. No, I don't care that there isn't.
I will have to do a lot of heavy-lifting on this, because there are stats demonstrating just how attractive the notion is (which I think is because it's associated with lots of the things you've highlighted there, eg compromise -- and it's seen as an alternative to left and right which automatically become associated with 'far', 'extremism', etc). I just don't think it makes any sense whatsoever, and can give a very full response in due course, but: i, you'll have to wait for it; and, ii, won't constitute a post on NSC. All I'll say for now is that you mention the One Nation lot, the LDs and KS as representatives of the centre. The One Nation lot also went by the name of 'the wets' when Thatcher transformed the UK, and they were sidelined out of the party, in only a marginally less stark manner than Johnson did to the likes of Grieve, etc. Which just goes to show that 'the centre' has shifted since then, and Thatcher has been key in securing what appears to be (rather than is) the centre ground, just as Attlee, Bevin, et al managed to set the agenda in the postwar period for decades until Thatcher re-set things for decades thereafter. How anyone can locate the centre within all this is beyond me (we could extend this further back to the Middle Ages as another example).
Yes, Stewart is thoughtful but, then again, so is Gove or 'Magic Grandpa'. Service is a word that Starmer has very much put centre-stage (a wise political move, given what we've been through). And I'll give you gravitas on Stewart, not so sure about compromise though -- he's been very clear that he's a fiscal conservative and was right behind austerity, which hardly constituted a compromise. I haven't heard it much, but the whole shtick of the Rest is Politics seems to be about two partisans agreeing, and toning down their partisanship in order to do so -- and Stewart is somewhat better at doing this than Campbell.
Anyway, I'm rambling, and have said enough ... for the moment at least
 


Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
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Jul 23, 2003
35,586
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I will have to do a lot of heavy-lifting on this, because there are stats demonstrating just how attractive the notion is (which I think is because it's associated with lots of the things you've highlighted there, eg compromise -- and it's seen as an alternative to left and right which automatically become associated with 'far', 'extremism', etc). I just don't think it makes any sense whatsoever, and can give a very full response in due course, but: i, you'll have to wait for it; and, ii, won't constitute a post on NSC. All I'll say for now is that you mention the One Nation lot, the LDs and KS as representatives of the centre. The One Nation lot also went by the name of 'the wets' when Thatcher transformed the UK, and they were sidelined out of the party, in only a marginally less stark manner than Johnson did to the likes of Grieve, etc. Which just goes to show that 'the centre' has shifted since then, and Thatcher has been key in securing what appears to be (rather than is) the centre ground, just as Attlee, Bevin, et al managed to set the agenda in the postwar period for decades until Thatcher re-set things for decades thereafter. How anyone can locate the centre within all this is beyond me (we could extend this further back to the Middle Ages as another example).
Yes, Stewart is thoughtful but, then again, so is Gove or 'Magic Grandpa'. Service is a word that Starmer has very much put centre-stage (a wise political move, given what we've been through). And I'll give you gravitas on Stewart, not so sure about compromise though -- he's been very clear that he's a fiscal conservative and was right behind austerity, which hardly constituted a compromise. I haven't heard it much, but the whole shtick of the Rest is Politics seems to be about two partisans agreeing, and toning down their partisanship in order to do so -- and Stewart is somewhat better at doing this than Campbell.
Anyway, I'm rambling, and have said enough ... for the moment at least
Fair enough. Great post, happy to discuss further.

I would clarify that I am not so much in favour of centrist beliefs as very much against what they stand up to.

I’m completely against a big state or a nanny state and completely against the suppression of meritocracy. I’m also completely against populism, the demonising of minority groups and putting oneself before the needs of the country.

And I believe The Enlightenment was aptly named.

I think of myself as a socially liberal social democrat. I’ve no idea if I actually hit those marks and have no intention of finding out or of defending those terms against whataboutery or hints of perceived hypocrisy.
 








Kalimantan Gull

Well-known member
Aug 13, 2003
13,171
Central Borneo / the Lizard
... if it's a social democratic party it is, by definition, not of the centre, it's of the left. I know that centrism is incredibly popular (and have my own views on why that is the case). You and @ROSM are articulate, can you please explain why you're so attracted to it.
well, left of centre, not left. I think the best thing is to bounce from centre left to centre right without straying too far from the centre.

Centrism is, I guess, about being practical. It just tries to make life better - or, perhaps, easier, or perhaps even, just stable and predictable - within the paradigm of what our country is. Not perfect, but not bad. Most of us don't really want to worry about politics, there's far more fun things to do with our lives. Just keep the economy rolling to stop prices going up and wages going down, fund the NHS and the schools and the police, ensure there are enough jobs to go round and provide opportunities for young people to fulfil their potential, make sure we can live on our pension and have a safety net when times get hard, make sure interest rates are low enough our mortgages are affordable and high enough that we can save for a rainy day, treat poverty seriously, ensure employers treat employees fairly, authorities treat the public fairly, and otherwise don't interfere too much in our lives. And then we can go to the pub, or out on a date, or watch the football, or take the kids to the zoo, or walk in the park, or read a good book, or whatever, without having to fret about politics. The past ten years have just been TOO MUCH!

A competent centrist government can do that with their eyes closed. The left and right, by contrast, are constantly trying to woo us with promises of more. They are driven by idealism and political theory, by a distant utopia that they are convinced will be a panacea for all our problems. But it becomes divisive and argumentative and is always doomed to failure because there are forces that will always bring it back to the centre, and whether its Truss or Corbyn or hard-Brexit or socialism - they never fully succeed and we instead suffer turmoil while they try. The further away from the centre you go, the more the other side fight back, and then you get culture wars, and no-one enjoys those.

Its not that I don't want some of these things that are important to ME, but I'm quite content to have a competent, inoffensive, centrist government. If we had had that in perpetuity we wouldn't have privatised the railways, we wouldn't have Brexit, we wouldn't have non-dom tax loopholes and others. The right have certainly been better at getting their ideology through.

Thats the main point. The other is that the left has a set of values and positions, and the right has a set of values and positions. And it seems to be one size fits all and you have to have ideological purity. So if, like me, you find yourselves in support of some policies from the left and some policies from the right, the centre is the only logical place to end up.
 
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Hometownglory

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2014
445
Can I just add this really insightful comment:

Rishi, I really couldn't give a shit if your mum owned a Pharmacy and your dad was a GP. Your attempt to use this as a way of removing yourself from the wealthiest 1% and relate to the ordinary working person or family is embarrassing. You have no idea you utter wolly.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,044
Hove




cunning fergus

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 18, 2009
4,785
Our PM left the DDay event he was attending early in order to attend this interview. Did he think it was Doubling Down Day?
To be fair to Rishi, commemorating the anniversary of D Day probably isn’t that important to him culturally, as it won’t be for millions of people in the country these days who weren’t here during WW2.

Similarly isn’t important for younger generations with little connection to that time.

There will be plenty out there who couldn’t give a shit for a boat load of privileged white guys that either died in the 40s or are still alive now in tbere late 90s etc.

As we know from the “votes for 16yo thread” some on this board wouldn’t even let them vote!
 


crodonilson

He/Him
Jan 17, 2005
13,737
Lyme Regis
Sir Keir, whose father was a toolmaker, said to be absolutely RAGING about Sunak's no show at D-Day events. I wouldn't like to be Rishi at the next time they meet, Starmer not a man to be messed with.
 






Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,952
This was unthinkable just a couple of week's ago, but:

1. If Rishi and the Tory party continue to implode like this Reform could receive a greater number of votes than the Conservatives.

2. Farage could be the next leader of the Conservative Party.
 


MJsGhost

Oooh Matron, I'm an
NSC Patron
Jun 26, 2009
4,800
East
This was unthinkable just a couple of week's ago, but:

1. If Rishi and the Tory party continue to implode like this Reform could receive a greater number of votes than the Conservatives.

2. Farage could be the next leader of the Conservative Party.
Although in that scenario, the LibDems would probably be the official opposition, so at least that odious toad wouldn't be front & centre.
 


Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
12,706
Cumbria
To be fair to Rishi, commemorating the anniversary of D Day probably isn’t that important to him culturally, as it won’t be for millions of people in the country these days who weren’t here during WW2.
Don't think that's really the point. He's the Prime Minister of the country. That means occasionally doing what you 'should do' rather than what you 'want to do'.
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,607
This was unthinkable just a couple of week's ago, but:

1. If Rishi and the Tory party continue to implode like this Reform could receive a greater number of votes than the Conservatives.

2. Farage could be the next leader of the Conservative Party.
why would Farage leave a sucessful Reform party for the Conservatives?
 


Eeyore

Colonel Hee-Haw of Queen's Park
NSC Patron
Apr 5, 2014
24,676
Our PM left the DDay event he was attending early in order to attend this interview. Did he think it was Doubling Down Day?
I'm not sure that was the case. It appears that his involvement was planned weeks ago and the schedule wasn't changed. There would have been no headlines had there not be an election.

I don't think it's a thing. But the media have made it a thing. The BBC interviewer was goading him by saying 'you don't care' which actually, and unusually for a Tory, made me a bit sorry for him. He's been at a lot of events.

The thing that also annoys me is the goading of old soldiers into angry quotes. Making them pawns to ham up the circus.

Strange world. As usual, showing how our media is an ugly joke.
 


Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
5,100
Mid Sussex
Although I do normally vote Tory, not this time. I have long said that 2 terms Tory followed by 1 term Labour probably creates a good balance between fiscal prudence and public infrastructure/service investment. Not that I always vote 2/1 etc, I would struggle to vote at all this time if Corbyn was still Labour leader!

The absolute lack of morality, empathy and simple ability shown by the current Tory party is worrying in my view. The lies, mist Ruth’s and self interest really makes me think that the UK political scene is beginning to turn into a mirror of the US. I do hope not.
Can you point me to the ‘fiscal prudence’ of the present shit shower?
 


Eeyore

Colonel Hee-Haw of Queen's Park
NSC Patron
Apr 5, 2014
24,676
To be fair to Rishi, commemorating the anniversary of D Day probably isn’t that important to him culturally, as it won’t be for millions of people in the country these days who weren’t here during WW2.

Similarly isn’t important for younger generations with little connection to that time.

There will be plenty out there who couldn’t give a shit for a boat load of privileged white guys that either died in the 40s or are still alive now in tbere late 90s etc.

As we know from the “votes for 16yo thread” some on this board wouldn’t even let them vote!
Is that a serious post. I know I'm easily wooshed.
 






Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
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Jul 23, 2003
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Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
why would Farage leave a sucessful Reform party for the Conservatives?
The plan is very clearly that the nuttier, more fascist types in the current Tory Party join 30p Lee in Reform.

Whether that drives the Tories back to One Nation centre-right people and policies or just adds them to this frankly dangerous lurch to the far right would then be up for debate, and would hinge largely on who still had a seat at Westminster.

Let's be clear, though, Reform will probably only win one seat so 'successful' is going to be pushing it a bit. We could see the Greens with two or three.
 


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