Gaza / Israel

[BadFish]

Must Watch.......

Hamas Claims: True or False? (Part 2) - YouTube

That is Brilliant............ FALSE!

This is the video equivalent of writing FACT after your posts, Hardly and evidence based deconstruction of the claims possibly made my Hamas. Love it!

It would have been better if it had a kitten though.

 

[BadFish]

Quite an interesting summary from Channel4

http://www.channel4.com/news/gaza-conflict-the-key-questions

 

[Dandyman]

..... oh dear, here we go again with a bit of education:

The Arab extremist regimes in the Middle East have publicly pledged to wipe out Israel (having been trying to do so since 1948).

I do not recall Israel promising to wipe out Islamic states.

You seem to also ignore the fact that while under 9000 square miles of Israel houses about 7 million inhabitants (of whom over 20% are not even Jews), about 400 million Arabs live in 5 million square miles. So the population density in the tiny dot that is Israel is 10 times that in Arab lands.

Secondly, there is no such thing as “confiscated Palestinian land”. The West Bank belonged to Jordan, as a result of the armistice “Green” line border at the end of the 1948 war, in which 6 combined Arab countries attempted to wipe Israel, and her Jewish inhabitants, off the face of the Earth.

The West Bank only came under Israeli control during the 1967 war, when again Jordan combined with Egypt in hostilities against Israel. It was the Jordanians who lost the West Bank, not “Palestinians.” In fact, over the years large numbers of Palestinians were displaced or killed not by Israel but by Jordan.

1. No, Iran talked about consigning the "Zionist regime" to the pages of history. Much as I dislike the Iranian regime the comment is not much different to the rhetoric used by right-wingers about the USSR when it existed.
2. Israel is certainly doing it's best to wipe out the possibility of a viable Palestinian state.
3. The West Bank did not belong to Jordan anymore than it now belongs to Israel. Jordanian forces lead by a British Officer occupied it in 1948. The same UN Resolution 181 which provides the legal basis for Israel would have placed the West Bank under Palestinian control. Jordan did kill lots of Palestinians in 1970, but that is irrelevant to Israel's illegal occupation and theft of land both of which are in defiance of countless UN resolutions and international law.

oh, and before you accuse me of being an anti-semite my father and his brothers were all members of Hashomer Hatzair in their youth and his elder brothers were members of the Israeli air force in 1948.

 

[portslade seagull]

Not interested mate....... this subject has been done to death on here.

Looks like you have lost the argument ... lets now talk football much better

 

[tezz79]

I don't think there are many people who want Hamas involved in this, we all know what they were and possibly still are but they are involved and for what ever reason they are representing the Palestinian people. However it must be acknowledged that they have made some demands in order to stop their rockets (they are listed a couple fo pages back if you missed them). I don't think they are particularly outrageous mainly they are just asking Israel to adhere to international law. So how will Israel react to these demands? It will be interesting to see. It is my guess that they will ignore them because there is certainly one side in this fight who do not want it to , that side is Israel (oops nearly forgot FACT!).

So there is my reaction to your Hamas point now would you mind addressing something for me (no pressure, no one else on your side of the discussion has.)

How do you eact to the idea that Israel are the aggressors in this war because:

- Israel have ignored countless UN resolutions?
- Taken far more land than was agreed up when the country was divided in 1947?
- Built an Illegal wall
- Built Illegal checkpoints
- 1948 and 1967, a million Palestinians forced off their land and are still not able to return.
- They continue to control the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza contrary to international law.

Ta

I very much doubt Israel see the UN as significant while their people were subject to countless suicide bomb attacks on school busses & other civilian targets hence they built the wall you refer to in your 3rd point which rightly or wrongly is actually a success (from an Israeli point of view)
A lot of the land that was took has been given back, I watched as Jewish settlers were evicted by their own army, their homes where also bulldozed.
A lot of land was was taken because it was strategical & known hotspots for militants to launch attacks on he Israeli community's.
The checkpoints whilst being illegal under international law I wonder if you'd be so quick to condemn them here if Brighton was subject to such terror attacks from its neighbours ?
Would you care what the international community thought of our government if they had to take such measures to stop your children being blown up while on their way to school or going shopping ?
The movement of goods ? Funny how the goods smuggled in on the Egyptian border are mainly arms & not the medical supplies & food they apparently need so much...... If you were at war would you cut your enemies supply lines or let every nut job dictator in the Middle East flood them with arms ?
It's all very nice thinking all they want is a bit of land but they don't do they, the hard line militants and their sponsors will move the goalposts until Israel cannot accept their terms.

Oh yeah & your "FACT" is bollocks mate, Israel could wipe both the Gaza Strip & the West Bank out in no time at all if they were the aggressors & like you've already stated they ain't bothered about what the international community think so why havnt they ?
Nice try at humour in quoting my phrase though, although so much on the dry side that I hardly noticed & forgot let out a little snigger at your sarcasm

 

[tezz79]

So you are suggesting that The problems in Palestine are a part of the world wide issue of the Muslims trying to take over the world?

Is that not what most militants (including bin laden) claim is one of their causes then ?
I think most of them pre 9-11 would refer to "Israeli occupation of Palestine" as a reason for their actions

 

[BadFish]

I very much doubt Israel see the UN as significant while their people were subject to countless suicide bomb attacks on school busses & other civilian targets hence they built the wall you refer to in your 3rd point which rightly or wrongly is actually a success (from an Israeli point of view)
A lot of the land that was took has been given back, I watched as Jewish settlers were evicted by their own army, their homes where also bulldozed.
A lot of land was was taken because it was strategical & known hotspots for militants to launch attacks on he Israeli community's.
The checkpoints whilst being illegal under international law I wonder if you'd be so quick to condemn them here if Brighton was subject to such terror attacks from its neighbours ?
Would you care what the international community thought of our government if they had to take such measures to stop your children being blown up while on their way to school or going shopping ?
The movement of goods ? Funny how the goods smuggled in on the Egyptian border are mainly arms & not the medical supplies & food they apparently need so much...... If you were at war would you cut your enemies supply lines or let every nut job dictator in the Middle East flood them with arms ?
It's all very nice thinking all they want is a bit of land but they don't do they, the hard line militants and their sponsors will move the goalposts until Israel cannot accept their terms.

Oh yeah & your "FACT" is bollocks mate, Israel could wipe both the Gaza Strip & the West Bank out in no time at all if they were the aggressors & like you've already stated they ain't bothered about what the international community think so why havnt they ?
Nice try at humour in quoting my phrase though, although so much on the dry side that I hardly noticed & forgot let out a little snigger at your sarcasm

.........and all without a single shred of evidence, thank i will take you unsubstantiated opinion as just that.

Can you provide me with some evidence that the land has been given back.

You may excuse the Israelis for not caring what the UN think but I do and this is what I base my opinions on.

I think it is all important that countries adhere to international law in order to protect Human rights (even through periods of conflict). You do not and that is your prerogative but if Brighton was involved in such a dispute I would hope that the international community would do all it could to protect the Human rights of my friends and family (I don't live there anymore) and not turn a blind eye to one side of the conflict breaking international law, the Geneva convention and ignoring many many UN resolutions as you seem to be happy to do. To me this is the crux of the argument......If Israel are merely defending themselves against rocket attack, why do they feel the need to do it by breaking international law? Surely it would be better for them to hold a strong moral position in this conflict rather than leave themselves wide open to criticism.

 

[tezz79]

Holding a strong morale high ground while civilians are getting blown up probably loses its appeal after a while though wouldn't you think ?
& the fact is that Hamas will not listen to the international community or adhere to the geneva convention, it's as if they are not even expected to yet all the time the UN & leaders of other nations call for Israel to show restraint....... Easy to say sat in safety.

I do agree there are wrongs on both sides but its the Palestinians that seem persistent on having this out through violence & indiscriminately targeting civilians

 

[tezz79]

.........and all without a single shred of evidence, thank i will take you unsubstantiated opinion as just that.

Can you provide me with some evidence that the land has been given back.

You may excuse the Israelis for not caring what the UN think but I do and this is what I base my opinions on.

I think it is all important that countries adhere to international law in order to protect Human rights (even through periods of conflict). You do not and that is your prerogative but if Brighton was involved in such a dispute I would hope that the international community would do all it could to protect the Human rights of my friends and family (I don't live there anymore) and not turn a blind eye to one side of the conflict breaking international law, the Geneva convention and ignoring many many UN resolutions as you seem to be happy to do. To me this is the crux of the argument......If Israel are merely defending themselves against rocket attack, why do they feel the need to do it by breaking international law? Surely it would be better for them to hold a strong moral position in this conflict rather than leave themselves wide open to criticism.

Well for starters the Israeli army has forcibly evicted Jewish settlers from Hebron (west bank) as far back as 2008 at least & there have been cases of evictions this year.
Also I just see that Hamas leader Khalid meshaal has refused a ceasefire under ANY Israeli terms & there will be no ceasefire until their (Hamas) terms are met.
In other words do as say or we keep launching rockets, obviously Israel have superior firepower which will always make them look the aggressors but should Hamas really be taking the route of conflict if they really have the Palestinian people's welfare in mind?
Of course they want conflict because without conflict they are nothing but a rogue organisation.
Also why do you not call on the people of the West Bank & Gaza to take the morale high ground ?
Do you think it's acceptable to hide weapons cashes in built up civilian areas or launch these rockets from heavily populated areas ?

 

[tezz79]

Caches even

 

[BadFish]

Well for starters the Israeli army has forcibly evicted Jewish settlers from Hebron (west bank) as far back as 2008 at least & there have been cases of evictions this year.
Also I just see that Hamas leader Khalid meshaal has refused a ceasefire under ANY Israeli terms & there will be no ceasefire until their (Hamas) terms are met.
In other words do as say or we keep launching rockets, obviously Israel have superior firepower which will always make them look the aggressors but should Hamas really be taking the route of conflict if they really have the Palestinian people's welfare in mind?
Of course they want conflict because without conflict they are nothing but a rogue organisation.
Also why do you not call on the people of the West Bank & Gaza to take the morale high ground ?
Do you think it's acceptable to hide weapons cashes in built up civilian areas or launch these rockets from heavily populated areas ?

I am bowing out of this discussion as I prefer to be able to read evidence offered by the opposing viewpoint. It is hard to argue against your points because when I have no point of reference for their validity. I am not really learning much from your conjecture and un reference opinion and as I have as little chance of changing your mind as you do mine there seems little point in carrying on.

If you feel like sharing some links or suggesting some books to read I will certainly have a look with interest.

I will leave with the point that I hope the people of Palestine will survive these latest problems and maybe down the track they will have a state to call their own instead of living as refugee in a small area controlled by another sovereign nation or in another country.

http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=86

http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=103

I genuinely hope you one day see through the bullshit and see that the oppressed people in this situation are the Palestinians and the oppressors are Israel (oppressed people will fight back!).

 

[tezz79]

I am bowing out of this discussion as I prefer to be able to read evidence offered by the opposing viewpoint. It is hard to argue against your points because when I have no point of reference for their validity. I am not really learning much from your conjecture and un reference opinion and as I have as little chance of changing your mind as you do mine there seems little point in carrying on.

If you feel like sharing some links or suggesting some books to read I will certainly have a look with interest.

I will leave with the point that I hope the people of Palestine will survive these latest problems and maybe down the track they will have a state to call their own instead of living as refugee in a small area controlled by another sovereign nation or in another country.

http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=86

http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=103

I genuinely hope you one day see through the bullshit and see that the oppressed people in this situation are the Palestinians and the oppressors are Israel (oppressed people will fight back!).

Why do I need to post links ?
Gaza itself was given back in 2005 when the Israeli army left, it took 2 years for the Palestinian people to install a terrorist organisation when Hamas came into power in 2007.
I can supply you with plenty of link in regards to Jewish settlers being evicted from the West Bank but a quick google is all you need to do to pull up a number of cases.

"Oppressed people fight back" so that's ok then ? It's ok that 2 schools in ashkelon were hit by missiles fired indiscriminately out of Gaza and into Israel (children within a 25 mile radius of Gaza are not attending school at the minute fortunately) you support this ?

Incase you need a link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4308707,00.html

Just one case of settlers evicted from Hebron this year: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/04/04/uk-palestinians-israel-settlers-idUKBRE8330YA20120404

And in Migron this year: Despite Eviction, Settlers of West Bank Outpost Hold Fast to Mission - NYTimes.com

Israel have been actively evicting settlers for some years now, here is a report from 2008: Israeli riot police evict settlers in Hebron | World news | The Guardian

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hebron settlers evicted by force

Strange actions for a state to evict its own people by force when according to you they just want war and to oppress the people living in the West Bank & Gaza.
was widely reported on but it seems you choose to ignore any view that does not fit in with what you want to believe.

Nobody can condone the way the genuine normal Palestinian people are being made to live but my view is that Hamas are largely to blame along with other militant groups & despots that have represented them or chosen to fight their cause in the past, they certainly have not helped matters.

Also there was never a "Palestine" this name was derived from the word philistine (enemies of the Jews) for provocation.
Palestinians refer to themselves as Arabs.

 

[BadFish]

Why do I need to post links ?
Gaza itself was given back in 2005 when the Israeli army left, it took 2 years for the Palestinian people to install a terrorist organisation when Hamas came into power in 2007.
I can supply you with plenty of link in regards to Jewish settlers being evicted from the West Bank but a quick google is all you need to do to pull up a number of cases.

"Oppressed people fight back" so that's ok then ? It's ok that 2 schools in ashkelon were hit by missiles fired indiscriminately out of Gaza and into Israel (children within a 25 mile radius of Gaza are not attending school at the minute fortunately) you support this ?

Incase you need a link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4308707,00.html

Just one case of settlers evicted from Hebron this year: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/04/04/uk-palestinians-israel-settlers-idUKBRE8330YA20120404

And in Migron this year: Despite Eviction, Settlers of West Bank Outpost Hold Fast to Mission - NYTimes.com

Israel have been actively evicting settlers for some years now, here is a report from 2008: Israeli riot police evict settlers in Hebron | World news | The Guardian

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hebron settlers evicted by force

Strange actions for a state to evict its own people by force when according to you they just want war and to oppress the people living in the West Bank & Gaza.
was widely reported on but it seems you choose to ignore any view that does not fit in with what you want to believe.

Nobody can condone the way the genuine normal Palestinian people are being made to live but my view is that Hamas are largely to blame along with other militant groups & despots that have represented them or chosen to fight their cause in the past, they certainly have not helped matters.

Also there was never a "Palestine" this name was derived from the word philistine (enemies of the Jews) for provocation.
Palestinians refer to themselves as Arabs.

Thanks for the links I have read them and they were very interesting....especially this part

Despite the evictions, Netanyahu said he intended to "strengthen Jewish settlement" in the West Bank and that these plans included expanding Hebron's Jewish enclave, but that this had to be done in accordance with the law.

So you have proven to me two things:
1. Rockets are being fired into Israel, and some of those rockets are hitting schools (and other civilian targets)
2. Israel have evicted some Jews from illegally (by Israeli law I assume) living in the occupied territories.

i accept both of them.


Anyway am I right that you are offering these evictions as proof that Israel are not oppressing the Palestinians?

To address your links about (empty) schools being hit with rockets. Are you suggesting that this kind of thing is not happening on both sides? See the third link I have offered.


Again I would love to read your evidence about the Palestinian name merely being a way to provoke the Israelis. Why do you need to provide it? Well you don't but if you think that I am going to take the word of someone on an internet forum as FACT you are mistaken.

anyway if you are interested in reading my view of the situation here are a few links.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article3581870.ece

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/29/1137836/-Alice-Walker-It-s-Worse-Than-the-Jim-Crow-South

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/sides.html

p.s you have also told me that Hamas came to power in 2007 yes you in an earlier post were blaming them as the aggressors in this situation. Which cannot be true as this situation has been going since long before 2007. The oppression described in the three links I have provided gives a good explanation to me as to why the Palestinian people would turn to a group such as Hamas.

 

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[Soulman]

13:31 UK Foreign Secretary William Hague tells Sky News that both he and Prime Minister David Cameron have stressed to their Israeli counterparts that a ground invasion of Gaza would lose Israel a lot of its international support and sympathy. He says it would be much more difficult to avoid civilian casualties during a ground invasion and that a large ground operation would threaten to prolong the conflict.

Chutzpah doesn’t even begin to cover this statement. Afghanistan anyone? Iraq? Who does he think he is telling Israel not to invade a hostile territory on its doorstep when Britain sent troops to two countries (and more) 10,000 miles away. Perfidious Albion indeed!

A letter in reply, which is from an Israeli citizen.


← Pillar of Cloud Day 7 updates: another rocket on Jerusalem, more rockets, more ceasefire talks
An open letter to William Hague
Posted on 20 November 2012

On Day 5 of Pillar of Cloud I mentioned the hypocrisy of British Foreign Minister William Hague in warning Israel that it will lose support if it starts a ground invasion of Gaza. This is what I wrote:

13:31 UK Foreign Secretary William Hague tells Sky News that both he and Prime Minister David Cameron have stressed to their Israeli counterparts that a ground invasion of Gaza would lose Israel a lot of its international support and sympathy. He says it would be much more difficult to avoid civilian casualties during a ground invasion and that a large ground operation would threaten to prolong the conflict.

Chutzpah doesn’t even begin to cover this statement. Afghanistan anyone? Iraq? Who does he think he is telling Israel not to invade a hostile territory on its doorstep when Britain sent troops to two countries (and more) 10,000 miles away. Perfidious Albion indeed!

William Hague

British FM William Hague

Hague spoke again today about “Israel’s obligations under international law” as if lecturing a recalcitrant schoolchild (via the ToI live-blog):

14:52 British Foreign Secretary William Hague reiterates support for Israel’s operation in Gaza, saying Hamas is to blame for the current violence. He also calls on Israel to obey international law and avoid civilian casualties, and warns against a ground operation as it would prolong the conflict unnecessarily and erode international support for Israel.

Speaking in the British parliament in London, Hague also slams Israel’s policy of illegal settlements, saying that it threatens the two-state solution.Hague says the UK is against the Palestinian Authority’s plan to ask the UN for the status of a non-member state, saying such a step “risks paralyzing” negotiations and “could have serious consequences for the PA.”

“There is no military solution to the conflict in Gaza, or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,” Hague says, emphasizing that a two-state solution is needed, and “time is running out.”

And here he is in a video addressing Parliament about the Gaza crisis, calling on Israel to “open the blockade” – as if that’s going to stop the rocket fire! – and to stop its “illegal settlements” – as if that was the reason for the rocket fire and as if that will stop Hamas’s genocidal intentions.

While we’ve all been gnashing our teeth in frustration, a cousin of my husband took the initiative and wrote this excellent open letter to William Hague. I quote it here in full with her permission (including her name).

Dear Mr Hague

You have stated that if Israel tries to defend its population through a
ground offensive in Gaza ‘it risks losing the sympathy of the
international community.’

Let me tell you something about the sympathy of the international
community Mr Hague. My father was liberated from Buchenwald
concentration camp in 1945, having lost his entire family but gaining
the sympathy of the international community at the time. After 6 million Jews had been annihilated at the hands of the Nazi regime, the international community had plenty of sympathy for the Jewish people. There is always plenty of sympathy for victims.

Israel doesn’t need the sympathy of the international community. What it needs is to defend its citizens.

When as a tiny country it gained its independence in 1948 it had to
absorb 800,000 Jews who were thrown out of Arab lands in the Middle East, and it did so without fuss and with dignity giving them shelter and a place of security in which their children could grow up to become productive citizens. When Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria tried to destroy Israel in 1948 and again in 1967 they took in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs, but did they give them dignity or shelter? No they left them to rot in refugee camps in order to maintain a symbol of grievance against Israel and use them as a political tool against the Jewish state. What has arisen in those camps is a complicated situation, but it is what has led to Gaza today.

So don’t lecture Israel on international sympathy Mr Hague.
Not when Israel has just sent in 120 truck loads of food into Gaza to
feed the Palestinian people there, because their own leadership is more interested in using its population as human shields, launching rockets against Israel from within major civilian centres.

Don’t lecture Israel on international sympathy Mr Hague.
Not when Israel targets with as much military precision as it can, only terrorists and their bases, trying its utmost to prevent civilian
casualties.

Don’t lecture Israel on international sympathy Mr Hague.
Not when the Palestinian media deliberately uses images of victims of the Syrian civil war and presents them as casualties in Gaza to gain international sympathy.

Go read your history books Mr Hague, go see that since the beginning of the twentieth century all the Arabs wanted to do was destroy Israel. Go look at the country of Israel now since the Jews have established a state there. Go read what advances in science, medicine, biotechnology, agriculture and high tech Israel has developed, and dedicated that knowledge to making the world a better place for humanity. Can you imagine any other country that after 60 years of continuously being under attack could have achieved so much.

So Mr Hague don’t lecture Israel on international sympathy.
Israel will do whatever it takes to defend itself from outright attack
on its citizens, whether it be from Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran or any other country or terrorist group that attacks it.

And if it loses the sympathy of the international community so be it. We don’t need the international community’s sympathy. We don’t need another 6 million victims.