[Albion] 'Football banning order for Antisemitic abuse'

[Arthur]

Well done to the club and police. I'm sure Barber will ensure she never sets foot again - ever.

Shame the Court didn't take it as seriously. £120 fine is a joke and just a 3 year ban. Some deterrent that is.

Football banning orders are between 3-5 years for non custodial sentences (6-10 years for custodial). Given no violence was involved I'd say 3 years is probably appropriate from a legal point of view assuming the magistrate had been instructed by the police that they wished to pursue a banning order. She will have the right to appeal it after 2/3rds of the order. The club can of course ban her for as long as they see fit.

 

[Don Tmatter]

I just hope that the poor couple on the receiving end of this big mouthed bigot’s tirade haven’t been put off attending any future matches since the incident

 

[Insel affe]

I just hope that the poor couple on the receiving end of this big mouthed bigot’s tirade haven’t been put off attending any future matches since the incident

Sadly they probably have heard similar before, unfortunately bigotry on many levels is prevalent in society and now some folks feel emboldened due to social media, high flying millionaires and world leaders.

 

[aolstudios]

Sadly they probably have heard similar before, unfortunately bigotry on many levels is prevalent in society and now some folks feel emboldened due to social media, high flying millionaires and world leaders.

Depressingly true

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Surely you can understand that whether someone is sitting by minding their own business or having an all out fight with the person that is subsequently charged with racism is neither here nor there to the charge and actual context of antisemitism. The aggravated crime is ‘religious or racial hatred’ - that’s not to be confused with the primary crime of assault or Breach of the Peace etc. where contexts, justifications and behaviour of the victim are relevant subtexts to the narrative. The ‘aggravation’ of racial/religious hatred is a sentencing guidelines issue and has no bearing on the behaviour of the victim only their religious/ethnic identity is relevant.

It is a valid observation.

If you disagree, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

I made my point several times now and just repeating myself.

I know it’s irrelevant to the crime. But it’s relevant as a news item, can you not see the difference I am making here? In fact, please don’t answer this question as I’m done with this. I think my point is perfectly clear.

 

[All Four Grounds]

Nothing to do with common usage. Antisemitism is a word coined in the 19th century to specifically & only mean Jew hate. By a proud Jew hater.
Look it up

You’ve missed understood my point. I was answering whether Judaism was a race or a religion and it’s a religion. Therefore antisemitism is the hatred of a person defined by their religion whether the hater realises it or no.

 

[jackalbion]

Sorry if I'm being ignorant, but isn't being Jewish two things, both a race and a religion, I am of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage which would be the race? However I'm not a practising Jew so therefore not the kind of religion? Does Anti-Semitism not just incorporate both?

So for this example the Anti-Semitism in the article is racist?

 

[All Four Grounds]

Sorry if I'm being ignorant, but isn't being Jewish two things, both a race and a religion, I am of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage which would be the race?

The Ashkenazi is a sub group of the Jewish Diaspora which simply means you are a descendant of practising Jews who left the Middle East hundreds of years ago. (They emerged after what we now call the Anglo-Saxons and we don’t consider the English as a distinct race.) So it is still a cultural definition rather than a racial one. None of this makes antisemitism any less vile and pernicious than it obviously is.

 

[Eeyore]

The Ashkenazi is a sub group of the Jewish Diaspora which simply means you are a descendant of practising Jews who left the Middle East hundreds of years ago. (They emerged after what we now call the Anglo-Saxons and we don’t consider the English as a distinct race.) So it is still a cultural definition rather than a racial one. None of this makes antisemitism any less vile and pernicious than it obviously is.

Many Jews have been able to trace their lineage back to the original tribes. So we are talking more than hundreds of years. If the Jews are not a race, then by definition race does not exist. It would be like saying Anglo-Saxons are a racial construct.

 

[Eeyore]

You’ve missed understood my point. I was answering whether Judaism was a race or a religion and it’s a religion. Therefore antisemitism is the hatred of a person defined by their religion whether the hater realises it or no.

Where does this leave the large % of Jews who are secular though ?

 

[All Four Grounds]

Where does this leave the large % of Jews who are secular though ?

Culture is very complex and vulnerable to external factors and Judaism in particular both because of it not being a proselytising religion like Christianity or Islam and because of the intolerance it has been subjected. Lots of Jews over the centuries have assimilated within the nations they lived but antisemitism (and to some extent Zionism later on) have made that much more difficult.

The two most significant breaks on assimilation have been the Inquisition in Spain (where Sephardic Jews including those who had converted to Christianity were persecuted the same) and of course the Holocaust. But in general it was very difficult for Jews to assimilate in Christian Medieval Europe where they were prevented from carrying any profession except money lending.

When this was no longer the case Jews either chose to retain their cultural identity or assimilate a decision down to individual and community factors that are too complicated to go into here. So what secular Jews choice to do now on a more enlightened age but it wound be naive to ignore the powerful influence of both antisemitism and Zionism on their decision making process.

But Judaism is a religion which individual can choose to embrace, examine or relinquish though whether others will respect their decision is another matter.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Given how hard it seems to be to decide what constitutes a Jew, a race, a culture, an ethnicity and a religion,
you have to hand it to the anti-Semites for their certainty and clarity of repulsiveness

 

[Whitechapel]

Surely you can understand that whether someone is sitting by minding their own business or having an all out fight with the person that is subsequently charged with racism is neither here nor there to the charge and actual context of antisemitism. The aggravated crime is ‘religious or racial hatred’ - that’s not to be confused with the primary crime of assault or Breach of the Peace etc. where contexts, justifications and behaviour of the victim are relevant subtexts to the narrative. The ‘aggravation’ of racial/religious hatred is a sentencing guidelines issue and has no bearing on the behaviour of the victim only their religious/ethnic identity is relevant.

It is a valid observation.

If you disagree, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

I made my point several times now and just repeating myself.

Nobody is talking about the it from a legal context apart from you so doing an impression of Ask Jeeves isn't really necessary

The entire point you appear to be purposefully ignoring so you can pontificate is that people are naturally going to feel more sympathy for somebody minding their own business who gets singled out. We're humans, our emotions aren't designed to be rational or to perfectly align with the dictionary definition of aggravated assault. Punching an 80 year old bloke for no reason and punching a 40 year old bloke for no reason are the same crime, but one of them is going to be naturally seen as worse.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You’ve missed understood my point. I was answering whether Judaism was a race or a religion and it’s a religion. Therefore antisemitism is the hatred of a person defined by their religion whether the hater realises it or no.

Jewish people trace their bloodline through their mother, which is why Keir Starmer’s children are Jewish, and he isn’t.
In the 1930s it only had to be one grandparent to qualify to wear the badge, not be allowed to work or get sent to a camp.

 

[Zeberdi]

Sorry if I'm being ignorant, but isn't being Jewish two things, both a race and a religion, I am of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage which would be the race? However I'm not a practising Jew so therefore not the kind of religion? Does Anti-Semitism not just incorporate both?

So for this example the Anti-Semitism in the article is racist?

Exactly - being Jewish isn’t a religion - Judaism is the religion - you can be Jewish without being religious as you said. There is no need to break it down though to define ‘antisemitism’.

For the purposes of the Sentencing Guidelines - Antisemitism is defined as a Hate Crimes which is the targeting of a Jewish person because they are Jewish.

Antisemitism can take the form of religious hatred, racial or cultural hatred, hatred of appearance etc etc - it’s hatred on the grounds someone is Jewish that makes it a hate crime.

The confusion some gentile people have is probably not helped by the fact there is no commonality amongst different Jewish communities what it means to be ‘Jewish’ but all agree hatred directed toward someone because they are or are perceived to be Jewish is a hate crime, specifically antisemitism.

Where does this leave the large % of Jews who are secular though ?

A rhetorical question because you already answered this yourself but to clarify:

Antisemitism is the targeting of Jews - whether they go to Synagogue or observe Shabbat or not is irrelevant.

You’ve missed understood my point. I was answering whether Judaism was a race or a religion and it’s a religion.

Correct

Therefore antisemitism is the hatred of a person defined by their religion whether the hater realises it or no.

No - Jews are NOT defined by their religion.

Antisemitism is a hatred of Jews - religious and non-religious Jews alike.

 

[Weststander]

You’ve missed understood my point. I was answering whether Judaism was a race or a religion and it’s a religion. Therefore antisemitism is the hatred of a person defined by their religion whether the hater realises it or no.

Someone could be from Jewish ancestry and be an atheist, and still face antisemitism.

 

[chip]

Someone could be from Jewish ancestry and be an atheist, and still face antisemitism.

Hello

From my experience it is a label other people have put on me. It's a strange that we put people into these boxes, I intensley dislike the idea that you label people on the basis of their maternal grandmother.

 

[Weststander]

Hello

From my experience it is a label other people have put on me. It's a strange that we put people into these boxes, I intensley dislike the idea that you label people on the basis of their maternal grandmother.

I don’t label anyone. I‘ve just listened to people including celebrities/artists, also people I know, who’ve explained their own background and the increasing racism (antisemitism) they face in the UK. James O’Brien calls it a very unique, three pronged attack …. from some Islamists, from parts of the left and of course from the far right.

 

[aolstudios]

You’ve missed understood my point. I was answering whether Judaism was a race or a religion and it’s a religion. Therefore antisemitism is the hatred of a person defined by their religion whether the hater realises it or no.

Jews are a race (Judaism is a religion). Neither Hitler nor Hamas checked if people went to synagogue before trying to wipe them all out

 

[aolstudios]

Given how hard it seems to be to decide what constitutes a Jew, a race, a culture, an ethnicity and a religion,
you have to hand it to the anti-Semites for their certainty and clarity of repulsiveness

A good point but it's nsc finding it hard. Not Jews