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wellquickwoody

Many More Voting Years
NSC Patron
Aug 10, 2007
13,864
Melbourne

Poverty is not just defined by wealth, or lack of it. Factors such as access to services, accomodation and information all play a part.

In what sense?

He never claimed 50% of the population would be in poverty.

You typing it doesn't make it so. By your definition a family of five in a single hostel room with coats and a can of soup is not living in poverty. Patently ridicuous.

Do go away you silly, chip on my shoulder, introverted leftie 'I am more educated than you' little man. Oh, sorry, I mistook you for Jeremy Corbyn.
 




The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
25,969
West is BEST
Do go away you silly, chip on my shoulder, introverted leftie 'I am more educated than you' little man. Oh, sorry, I mistook you for Jeremy Corbyn.

So I take it you have no answer to any of my questions. Didn't think so. Not claiming to be more educated, I'm only asking you questions based on your posts. Seems a reasonable way to behave on a discussion thread.

P.S
What on earth is an "introverted leftie"?
:lolol:
 


BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
You typing it doesn't make it so. By your definition a family of five in a single hostel room with coats and a can of soup is not living in poverty. Patently ridicuous.

If an adult 'self inflicts' financial hardship on themselves or their children, then it shouldn't necessarily be categorised as poverty in the context currently discussed.

I know many examples where there is a claim of poverty/hardship when they have just been feckless, dysfunctional or neglectful.

The starting point should be here:https://www.entitledto.co.uk

Choose a profile, how about your family of five perhaps that you have chosen to put in a hostel with one can of soup ? or single mum/dad, two parents, two children etc. and see if it looks reasonable or not, currently all we get are the left bleating that those on benefits are vulnerable and in need of greater financial help whilst those on the right deem them lazy and feckless, but rarely do we post up actual entitlements and discuss from a informed position.
 








The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
25,969
West is BEST
If an adult 'self inflicts' financial hardship on themselves or their children, then it shouldn't necessarily be categorised as poverty in the context currently discussed.

I know many examples where there is a claim of poverty/hardship when they have just been feckless, dysfunctional or neglectful.

The starting point should be here:https://www.entitledto.co.uk

Choose a profile, how about your family of five perhaps that you have chosen to put in a hostel with one can of soup ? or single mum/dad, two parents, two children etc. and see if it looks reasonable or not, currently all we get are the left bleating that those on benefits are vulnerable and in need of greater financial help whilst those on the right deem them lazy and feckless, but rarely do we post up actual entitlements and discuss from a informed position.


Sorry, this doesn't answer the question. what do you mean by dysfunctional, negelctful or feckless? I cannot see how a child living in poverty could be accused of such things?
 


Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,801
Uffern
As a working class socialist I’ve never been to a rugby match. :lolol:

Certainly nothing snobbish about rugby in Wales, that's for sure.

You make a fine point, I LOVE going to watch Rugby, love watching England but it's very difficult to get some sort of kinship with your fellow fans. They're not like me.

This is bit off the topic of this thread but we were having this discussion at our rugby club last night. We have a girls team that's dominated by private school educated girls: we have no girls at all from BACA, Longhill or Varndean.

I do wonder whether rugby's image is putting some of them off -and this thread seems to suggest that there's still an undercurrent that rugby is for the posh people. It certainly isn't in Wales, where my family's from, and it certainly isn't in the west country but the image of rugby is of the Harlequins/waxed jacket brigade. It's a rather worrying one for left-leaning people like me who love the game and who wants to make it thrive.
 


BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
Sorry, this doesn't answer the question. what do you mean by dysfunctional, negelctful or feckless? I cannot see how a child living in poverty could be accused of such things?

Dont be daft, it quite obviously changes the political aspect of your post and might shift responsibility away from the state and on to someone else, why not do the entitlement calculator and we can perhaps see who we might want to blame, just give it a go ?

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/ why not start with your family of 5 and their can of soup and lets discuss if I am just being flippant or callous or you are talking political bullsh1t ?
 




The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
25,969
West is BEST
Dont be daft, it quite obviously changes the political aspect of your post and might shift responsibility away from the state and on to someone else, why not do the entitlement calculator and we can perhaps see who we might want to blame, just give it a go ?

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/ why not start with your family of 5 and their can of soup and lets discuss if I am just being flippant or callous or you are talking political bullsh1t ?

Before we move on, can you (will you) answer my question?

I can tell you now, I'm a white, worrking aged, middle class male with no disabilities and in good health with a partner and no dependants. I live in a nice part of Sussex and work for a living. I will not and do not expect to be entitle dto anything. However, there are hundreds of thousands of people who are not a sfortunate a me and they should receive benefits and support while they seek to improve their and thier family's lives. It does not make them dysfunctional, feckless or neglectful.
 








wellquickwoody

Many More Voting Years
NSC Patron
Aug 10, 2007
13,864
Melbourne
Not strong and not stable leadership or government....

[tweet]926047500808704001[/tweet]

[tweet]926042186361311232[/tweet]

'The victims Erns, the victims. Don't be seen to be making political gain out of others problems etc etc.'

Oops, my bad, mistook you for being Jezza!
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,381
The Fatherland
As taken from dictionary.com, (not Oxford I know, but easily accessible) 'the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor.' Your point of 50% of the population being unable to feed or clothe themselves is simply a political smokescreen, it simply is not true as well you know.

FFS are you deliberately being thick? You raised the issue of quantifying poverty, not me. I used the 50% as an example to challenge your assertion. Well done for quoting the dictionary definition....but how does this tie in with the 5% you stated?
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,940
Poverty is not just defined by wealth, or lack of it. Factors such as access to services, accommodation and information all play a part.

just to interject, poverty is defined for the statistical purpose by income, and nothing else. it various considerably depending on circumstance too, in the IFS numbers from £239pw for a single parent with one child to £447pw for couple with three, and the threshold for relative poverty higher still (i found i was living in poverty a couple of years ago, which was news to me).
 




Titanic

Super Moderator
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
39,859
West Sussex
Off the top of my head, isn't the 'Relative Poverty' measure that Jezza quotes so frequently measured as living on less than 60% of median household earnings?
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
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Jul 11, 2003
62,381
The Fatherland
This is bit off the topic of this thread but we were having this discussion at our rugby club last night. We have a girls team that's dominated by private school educated girls: we have no girls at all from BACA, Longhill or Varndean.

I do wonder whether rugby's image is putting some of them off -and this thread seems to suggest that there's still an undercurrent that rugby is for the posh people. It certainly isn't in Wales, where my family's from, and it certainly isn't in the west country but the image of rugby is of the Harlequins/waxed jacket brigade. It's a rather worrying one for left-leaning people like me who love the game and who wants to make it thrive.

I’m off to the rugby club. Laters.
 


BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
Before we move on, can you (will you) answer my question?

I can tell you now, I'm a white, worrking aged, middle class male with no disabilities and in good health with a partner and no dependants. I live in a nice part of Sussex and work for a living. I will not and do not expect to be entitle dto anything. However, there are hundreds of thousands of people who are not a sfortunate a me and they should receive benefits and support while they seek to improve their and thier family's lives. It does not make them dysfunctional, feckless or neglectful.

Of course it doesnt make them those things I never said it did, I said if you care to look at the support and benefits that those that are entitled to it already receive then the discussion should be how a family receiving 'x' amount find themselves unable feed or care for their family.

Somehow these discussions are full of the usual political sound bites and hardly anyone shows the rate of benefits an unemployed family for example may receive, yet its here for us all to see but no one from the left dare ever take a look and then comes back for a meaningful discussion on the amount of benefits received by its claimants and if it is reasonable or not.

You threw out a scenario of a family of five and a can of soup, as if its common place and needs addressing, but why not calculate it and lets see if there is any truth in your claim that these are not getting fair support.

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,381
The Fatherland




The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
25,969
West is BEST
Of course it doesnt make them those things I never said it did, I said if you care to look at the support and benefits that those that are entitled to it already receive then the discussion should be how a family receiving 'x' amount find themselves unable feed or care for their family.

Somehow these discussions are full of the usual political sound bites and hardly anyone shows the rate of benefits an unemployed family for example may receive, yet its here for us all to see but no one from the left dare ever take a look and then comes back for a meaningful discussion on the amount of benefits received by its claimants and if it is reasonable or not.

You threw out a scenario of a family of five and a can of soup, as if its common place and needs addressing, but why not calculate it and lets see if there is any truth in your claim that these are not getting fair support.

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/

Clearly something is wrong because people are living in poverty, people are homeless, families are living in hostels. But like you say, if the only problem is that they are feckless then surely we shouldn't include them in the stats, we could just tell them it's their fault and well, problem solved surely?

I had a look at the benefits calculator thing. If you think I'm going through that 12 page form for a theoretical family, just to satisfy your need for a row, you can think again. You do it and get back to me.

I think you could "benefit" from doing some research into the reasons people end up in poverty. Start with things like mental health, abuse, care, inability to read, no access to benefits they may be entitled to, ill health, death of family members, addiction and yes...government created poverty through austerity and disparity of wealth.
 




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