Fire service staff arrested following deaths

[Guy Fawkes]

Arrests over Warwickshire firefighter deaths
BBC News - Arrests over Warwickshire firefighter deaths

Three fire service staff have been arrested over the deaths of four firefighters in Warwickshire in 2007.

Police said a man, 43, from Nuneaton, a 49-year-old man from Leamington Spa and another man, 48, of Warwick, presented themselves at a police station.

They will be questioned on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter and offences under health and safety laws.

The fire took place at a vegetable packing plant in Atherstone-on-Stour in November.

Packing plant

All four firemen who were killed were from Warwickshire.

A director of Wealmoor Atherstone Ltd, owners of the plant and warehouse, has said no sprinkler system was installed.

The bodies of Ashley Stephens, 20, John Averis, 27, and Darren Yates-Badley, 24, were found inside the remains of the building, a vegetable packing plant, days after the fire.

Ian Reid, 44, died in hospital.

A Warwickshire Police spokesman said: "This morning a 43-year-old man from Nuneaton, a 49-year-old man from Leamington and a 48-year-old man from the Warwick area presented themselves at a Warwickshire police station, where they will be questioned on suspicion of gross negligence manslaughter and offences under the Health and Safety at Work Act."

A Fire Brigades Union (FBU) spokesman said he could confirm the arrested men were fire service staff and members of the union.

Search operation

They will be getting legal representation from the FBU.

Last month, the union said it had been told three of its members would be questioned under caution over allegations of gross negligence manslaughter.

Police said in January that the investigation was still continuing and that many people had been interviewed, including fire personnel and Wealmoor employees working at the plant on the day of the fire.

Mr Yates-Badley and Mr Stephens were based at Alcester fire station.

Ian Reid was based at the Rugby and Stratford-upon-Avon fire stations, while John Averis was at Stratford.

A massive search operation, involving more than 100 fire officers from Warwickshire, Hereford and Worcester and the West Midlands, took place at the packing plant for the firefighters' bodies.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Did East Sussex Fire and Rescue cause the deaths of Mr Wicker and Mr Wembridge?

Here is how the fire service should have handled the situation but didn't and what they should have done. BBC NEWS | UK | In danger's way at deadly blazes

There are obvious Similarities to the recent events in Sussex where Martin and Nathan Winter were charged with and found guilty of the Manslaugher over the deaths of Mr Wicker and Mr Wembridge, but were East Sussex Fire and Rescue staff really the ones responsible?? - Has there been a miscarriage of justice?

especially if you consider this part:-

"It all comes down to risk assessment, which is critical. There will be times when it's necessary for us to take on huge risk because human life is in danger.

"There are other times when that life is already lost and it would be stupid to take it on.

"Every situation is different. That's where risk assessment comes in."

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - but they were probably acting on information they had at the time

Adrian Hughes
Retained Firefighters Union

Gathering as much intelligence on the situation as possible on arriving at the scene is crucial, he says.

"If it's a domestic situation they can be quite dangerous, but not on the scale of Warwickshire.

"When you've got industrial premises you need to know is there anybody in there?

"Then, before you commit any firefighters into the building you need to establish what is on fire, how quickly it is developing, and are there any risks such as electrical wires or chemicals?

"The officer in charge has to weigh up all these factors and decide whether to commit people into the building."

Safety officer

Mr Hughes says most fire brigades now use what is known as an incident command system, based on a model developed in the US.

With fires on the scale of that in Warwickshire, the scene will be broken down into a number of sectors.

In each area there will be a safety officer whose sole job is to assess the ongoing risk - they will not be doing any firefighting.

Sector commanders report back to an overall incident commander who will be responsible for making what can be life-or-death decisions based on the information received.

Mr Hughes said: "With the incident command system we are limiting the chance of something going wrong.

"It seems like these guys were committed into the fire some time into the incident. It's not like they arrived at the scene and went dashing in.

"By this time the incident command system should have been working. Within 30 minutes of an incident like that the incident command system should have been up and running."

There was no risk to lives at Marley Farm in Ringmer, the firefighter knew that there were sheds with fireworks stored in them which is a risk that the firefighters on the day and prior to the accident would have been aware of, so why were the firefighters still too close when it exploded an hour after the fire crews arrived.

I believe that, had they followed their own Health and Safety rules, Mr Wicker and Mr Wembridge would still be alive.

It seems to me that Martin and Nathan Winter have been made scapegoats by the emergency services to cover up their own negligence on the day. They have closed ranks to cover this up and i for one am outraged by this.

On the day, the firefighters had no water to tackle the blaze, the hydrant nearby (outside the Wok Inn) was reported broken during the previous inspection but never repaired, so if they had no way of tackling the blaze why didn't they evacuate the 600 meters that their own Health and Safety rules dictate?, why were they still too close an hour later?

They failed to carry out risk assessments during the fire and they ignored repeated warnings about the danger to their lives but chose to ignore them, at least one firefighter told someone warning them that "go away, you don't know what your talking about, we are the professionals, we know what we are doing"

 

[sam86]

No suprise you are interested in fire Mr Fawkes...

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Arson attack in Warwickshire - Four Firefighters believed to have perished - North Stand Chat

 

[KneeOn]

No suprise you are interested in fire Mr Fawkes...

i noticed that too!

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Arson attack in Warwickshire - Four Firefighters believed to have perished - North Stand Chat

My posts refer initially to the arrests a few days ago of the Fire service staff who were running the operation and needlessly sent those men to their deaths.

And also the huge similarities between the case and that of the Fireworks depot explosion and deaths at Marley Farm, Ringmer. Originally the Warwickshire Fire service were trying to pin the blame on 4 Polish men rather than their own failings on the day

 

[Guy Fawkes]

No suprise you are interested in fire Mr Fawkes...

More interested in fair justice being carried out in our county, why should 2 men be in prison now because of the incompetent way East Sussex Fire and Rescue handled the operation?

 

[Barrel of Fun]

My posts refer initially to the arrests a few days ago of the Fire service staff who were running the operation and needlessly sent those men to their deaths.

And also the huge similarities between the case and that of the Fireworks depot explosion and deaths at Marley Farm, Ringmer. Originally the Warwickshire Fire service were trying to pin the blame on 4 Polish men rather than their own failings on the day

I know. I thought it might be relevant to dig up the old thread for a bit of background.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

And also the huge similarities between the case and that of the Fireworks depot explosion and deaths at Marley Farm, Ringmer. Originally the Warwickshire Fire service were trying to pin the blame on 4 Polish men rather than their own failings on the day

I thought the Winters were sent down for their own failings for illegal/unsafe storage and failure to warn the fire service. I don't quite see how there are similarities..?

 

[Guy Fawkes]

I thought the Winters were sent down for their own failings for illegal/unsafe storage and failure to warn the fire service. I don't quite see how there are similarities..?

There are alot of similarities

The Fire and Rescue service have a duty of care to their personel, in both incidences listed above:
- the Fire service failed to carry out risk assessments as they should have,
- they failed to ensure that their crews were out of harms way when it was evident that there were no lives at risk.
- they failed to follow the correct health and safety rules
- had both service acted correctly, all 6 fatalities wouldn't have occured

The consequences of the Winters case are quite shocking if their case becomes the norm. The fire service will be able to operate without regard for their own rules and if something were to happen to one of their crew, they would then prosecute the properties owner for manslaugher, even if it was as a result of their own failings.

For example - If you have a chip pan fire and you call the fire service, warn them that there isn't anyone in the building but they still send a crew in, whilst they are in the building, the ceilling collapses, killing a crew member, using the Winters case, they could prosecute you for that persons death.

The Winters did warn the fire crews of the dangers, as you might do in th e above hypothetical example, but that didn't stop them facing a jury.

Had the fire service acted appropriately there wouldn't be any manslaughter charges to answer and there wouldn't be two people in prison as a result.

The fire service got their response completely wrong on the day, In court it was admitted that their staff hadn't received the correct training, that no risk assessment was carried out, etc etc, Maybe they got carried away by the excitement (one officer phoned his wife and told her to come along with their child to watch the fieworks) or they just completely underestimated the risks as they failed to make the link between fireworks and explosives (which fireworks are after all)

If you have a shed that is licensed to hold 20 Tonnes of fireworks and their is a fire on that site, don't you think that the sensible and correct course of action is to withdraw to the 600 meter cordone your own rules and regulations tell you to do, especially as they knew that their was no lives at risk. Their own rules say that they should withdraw and let the site burn itself out as the dangers are so great.

The Winters were done on a technicality, they were allowed to store fireworks for 24 hours for transportation in that metal container, they were in the process of getting all the paperwork in order for this to occur when the fire happened. It was not, as the press reports made out, the only storage area on the site and in constant use, and yes in evidence, fire fighters confirmed that Martin and Nathan Winter did warn them about the dangers of that metal container as fireworks were inside (which were ignored).

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I thought the Winters were sent down for their own failings for illegal/unsafe storage

Possibly.

But the witch hunt was all about the deaths of the two fire service personnel.