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[Other Sport] F1 2022



Iggle Piggle

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2010
5,550
Couldn’t help but watch that race end thinking- this is what happens when the rules are followed.

Personally I have no problem with the race finishing under the safety car. Very few F1 races have a grandstand finish, normally the guy in first place is managing his pace / engine cruising around to victory. Finishing under a SC isn’t much different- I never really understood why people were obsessed with a green flag finish. I get that there can be some fun (sometimes) after a SC restart but it’s all pretty artificial.

In basic terms the race directors / Marshalls need to follow the current rules. If the sport is not happy with the consequences of the current rules then they are free to re-write them and apply the revised rules.

The issue last year was making it up on the spot, not applying the current rules, which resulted in awarding the title to the person who would have been 2nd had the rules been followed. Madness.

And F1 have admitted since that it was categorically the wrong decision, they sacked Masi, but Max retains the WC he only won through failure to enact the correct rules. Bonkers.

Personally I really didn’t see the need for it - just finish the race under the SC like they did yesterday. In terms of repercussions- LH would have got his 8th title, won all the records etc, maybe would have retired, or not, good for the sport as a narrative either way (arguably). Max would have been disgruntled and hungry and would have come out fighting this year, when as it transpires he has a car which can thrash everyone and has a nailed on WC. This dominance may continue into subsequent seasons under the new regs meaning he gets a load of titles anyway- he didn’t need the rules to be bent to hand him his first one.

Overall I say the sport dropped a bo**ock in Abu Dhabi, it compromised the integrity of the sport as it looked like they are willing to bypass their own rules to improve the show or secure a preferred outcome / narrative.

If they do want to re-write the safety car rules then go for it- come up with something folk are happy with and apply that consistently.

This is a good an article as any. Short version is they've talked a lot about different solutions but all the teams voted to keep the status quo as they can't come up with anything better.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-teams-couldnt-agree-rule-to-prevent-safety-car-finishes/
 




Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
Verstappen leading, we won’t red flag the race, we’ll let it finish behind the safety car

Crock of shit, they should have red flagged the race as soon as it became obvious they couldn’t move Ricciardo’s car. Would have give some last few laps excitement. The title was done and dusted, so nothing to lose by red flagging the race.

As much as it sucked, the FIA actually followed the rulebook to the letter yesterday. All explained in detail here: https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-rules-that-forced-controversial-end-to-f1s-italian-gp/

The real tragedy of yesterday's race finish is that the rules weren't revised before this season when they had the opportunity. But again, apparently not the FIA's fault: https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-teams-couldnt-agree-rule-to-prevent-safety-car-finishes/

What I would say, however, and it's become an alarming trend: the race director / stewards are taking far too long to make obvious decisions. Everyone knew the moment that Ricciardo stopped his car where he did that a SC would be needed. But there was, in racing terms, a rather unnecessarily lengthy delay before it was called. It was the same for the VSC earlier in the race - everyone knew it was coming and necessary, yet it took too long for it to be called. It's not just Monza - it's been noticeable across the season as a whole. Feels like they're erring on the side of "making sure we make the right decision" rather than erring on the side of "there's a safety issue here, let's make sure everyone's safe first". The VSC is the perfect answer here: throw the VSC quickly, it's a decision that can be quickly and easily reversed if it proves the wrong one. You can then take a little longer to determine if the full SC is needed or not.

As far as races ending under SC - I don't think it's anywhere near as hard as Seidl makes out in the article I linked above. There's a ready-made set of rules they can borrow from Indycar. Take those rules, tweak them for F1, and job done. FIA / Formula 1 can get what it wants in this regard by bringing in the rule on a time delay that avoids them needing teams to agree - the only reason getting teams agreement was a thing for this year is because the rules stipulate that short-notice rule changes need team agreement.
 
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Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
And now for some future thinking:

I suspect Nyck de Vries has driven his way into a Williams contract for next year. And Latifi getting trashed by a short notice rookie will have 100% confirmed his exit from Formula 1. Williams 2023 should be Albon and De Vries, and I suspect we could see them challenging for points on a much more regular basis as well. However, possible wrinkle: rumours have begun that Alpine might be looking at De Vries as well.

Mick Schumacher's future remains in doubt. On one hand, there's quotes from both Ferrari and Haas that imply he'll be out ... but on the other, there's positive quotes as well and Mick has outraced Magnussen in the last couple of rounds. If Mick isn't retained, it's looking increasingly likely it'll be Hulkenberg - although Giovinazzi remains a possibility.

The Alpine seat ... who knows? It looked like it would be Gasly, but Red Bull can't get a super licence for Herta, so Gasly won't be released. Talk then moved to Doohan, but suspect he's a choice of last resort. Meanwhile, Alpine probably aren't doing themselves any favours when it comes to attracting talent with the way they're handling the Piastri situation - they continue to slag off Piastri for leaving, but have at least finally admitted they made mistakes and had no legal right to his services.

The new F2 champion, Drugovich, has been picked up as reserve driver for Aston martin for 2023. Apparently he's had to pay to get it. This year's F2 field is not seen as very high quality by F1 teams, so Drugovich's win is not seen as a sign of a top talent that needs an F1 seat. Drugovich is finishing his 3rd season in F2, and winning the F2 title in the 3rd (or later) season is never seen as a sign of talent. Pourchaire has failed to impress in his second season, leaving it to the two young rookies (Sargeant and Doohan) to do the impressing - but neither is seen as being ready for F1 immediately and their senior teams (Williams and Alpine respectively) would rather see them do a second F2 season first.
 


GREASED WEASEL

New member
Dec 10, 2017
2,893
Yes,the race did finish by the book yesterday

But I'm sure other people noticed that the recovery of Riccardo's car seemed a little dangerous
With the recovery vehicle reversing on track while the cars were approaching, weaving as they do on slow laps

Very much borderline red flag (not for entertainment value, but based on safety)

I did notice in the F2 race they came down heavily on driver penalties, the usual +5 seconds, turned into a full stop/go penalty

How do others feel about the pit lane being closed under SC?
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
I did notice in the F2 race they came down heavily on driver penalties, the usual +5 seconds, turned into a full stop/go penalty

That was laughable. The FIA have apologised to the driver for what turns out to have been an admin error. The stewards decided on a 10 second time penalty (*not* a stop-go) and someone pressed the wrong button and it was declared to the team as a stop-go, which they served before the error was spotted and therefore couldn't be corrected.
 




Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
How do others feel about the pit lane being closed under SC?

On this one, I've been following F1 long enough to have watched seasons where this did happen. The rule was changed because it was causing drivers to take penalties for pitting when they had no choice (eg punctures picked up from running over debris), or staying out on track with a dangerously damaged car because the pit lane was closed.

For those who aren't aware, the Indycar rules I mentioned that F1 should look at borrowing would have dealt with yesterday's situation very well. Essentially, once a certain point in the race is reached any incident that would normally cause an SC to be deployed instead causes an automatic red flag. They can then take their time cleaning up, and send the cars back out to race any remaining laps. Restart is done behind SC, and from memory they are *not* allowed to repair damage or change tyres while the red is out.
 


GREASED WEASEL

New member
Dec 10, 2017
2,893
On this one, I've been following F1 long enough to have watched seasons where this did happen. The rule was changed because it was causing drivers to take penalties for pitting when they had no choice (eg punctures picked up from running over debris), or staying out on track with a dangerously damaged car because the pit lane was closed.

For those who aren't aware, the Indycar rules I mentioned that F1 should look at borrowing would have dealt with yesterday's situation very well. Essentially, once a certain point in the race is reached any incident that would normally cause an SC to be deployed instead causes an automatic red flag. They can then take their time cleaning up, and send the cars back out to race any remaining laps. Restart is done behind SC, and from memory they are *not* allowed to repair damage or change tyres while the red is out.

Yeah,I do remember when the pit lane was closed under SC,but for the life of me,I couldn't remember how it was policed,thanks for the reminder

The Indy solution does sound spot on,hopefully the FIA will address this,so we all know where we are
 








Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
Update on 2023 Silly Season:

Key:
Bold = confirmed
Italic = rumoured / expected
Underline = Current driver, yet to be officially confirmed for 2023


Ferrari
Leclerc and Sainz

Red Bull
Verstappen and Perez

Mercedes
Hamilton and Russell

Alpine
Ocon and Gasly

At Alpine, expectation has circled back around to Gasly making the move. While Red Bull have abandoned efforts to get Colton Herta into Alpha Tauri for 2023, the Gasly move appears to be back on after De Vries' stellar drive at Monza attracted Red Bull's interest. This particular circus might not be over, though, as Alpine are doing some testing with last year's car this week: Giovinazzi, Doohan, and De Vries are all expected to have some seat time. Until we have an actual signed Gasly contract, anything could happen at Alpine. Also ... it's amusing that Alpine's reaction to losing Piastri due to their own stupidity in not locking him into a proper contract might be to close their junior academy completely. Surely a better answer is to get a better legal team?

McLaren
Norris and Piastri

Aston Martin
Alonso and Stroll

We all know it'll be Stroll ... but from memory he's not actually confirmed yet, so not in Bold.

Alfa Romeo
Bottas and Zhou

Xhou is still not confirmed for 2023, however the chances for Pourchaire appear to be fading and Alfa talk very favourably about Zhou's performances. Expected to be confirmed late Sept / early Oct. On a non-driver note, 2023 will also be the final year for the team being known as Alfa Romeo. With Audi expected to buy into the team ahead of supplying the power units from 2026, Alfa will be leaving.

Haas
Magnussen and [Hulkenberg / Giovinazzi / Schumacher]

Mick Schumacher's chances of staying on the grid appear very slim. Current favourite to take his seat appears to be Hulkenberg to make yet another come back.

Alpha Tauri
Tsunoda and [Gasly / De Vries]

With Colton Herta unable to get a Super license currently, Alpha Tauri have now apparently become very interested in De Vries if Gasly is released. De Vries has been seen talking with Helmut Marko.

Williams
Albon and [Logan Sargeant / De Vries]

Williams had looked to be in pole position to get De Vries before Alpha Tauri's interest emerged. If they miss out on De Vries, they are expected to instead promote their F2 junior Logan Sargeant - however this is dependent on him earning enough Super license points in F2. He'll need to finish the season 5th or better, and currently sits in 4th - but there's 3 drivers just behind him on the table who could all jump him at the final weekend. If Sargeant fails to get his SL, then it's guesswork - maybe Alpine might try to place Doohan there in a similar manner to how they tried to place Piastri.
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
Porsche / Red Bull deal is OFF

Having looked like the deal being completed was just a matter of putting signatures to contracts a few weeks ago, as often happens in Formula 1 a lot has changed. Porsche have officially announced that they will not be entering Formula 1 with Red Bull, but in the same announcement have indicated that they do still have a desire to enter Formula 1 if the right opportunity presents itself.

Cue suggestions already coming through that Andretti should be on the phone to them sorting out an engine supply deal that he can use as leverage to convince the FIA to approve his new team.

Lo and behold ... Toto Wolff has now dangled the carrot explicitly: https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolff-new-engine-supplier-11th-team-completely-different/

Toto is thought to be one of the big stumbling blocks for Andretti getting an entry. Wolff has a powerful voice in the F1 paddock. It's plausible that Domenicali at the FIA has had a word in Toto's ear and asked him to say this. The FIA *wants* Porsche in F1. Andretti *wants* to join F1. FIA can't really come right out and say "we'll accept you only if you do a deal with Porsche", but Toto can.

The problem with this solution, though, is that it is now widely accepted that Porsche won't be ready for 2026 if they have to develop a power unit on their own. They would have needed to start already months ago, but didn't because they put their eggs in the Red Bull deal and putting their name on the PU that RBPT are building. Rumours a while back were that the partially developed Porsche PU from a few years back was instead handed over to Audi and will form the basis of the new Audi PU in 2026. So Porsche currently have diddly squat to offer anyone.

A couple of options present themselves in my mind:

1. Porsche swallows their pride and does a deal with Andretti to enter F1 using a re-badged Audi power unit in 2026, which buys them time to develop their own unit for maybe 2028 (for example).

2. Porsche, Andretti, and the FIA have a chat and the FIA allows Andretti to enter for 2026 using a non-Porsche power unit, but with a binding contract to switch to Porsche as soon as Porsche has a power unit available.
 




schmunk

"Members"
Jan 19, 2018
9,782
Mid mid mid Sussex
1. Porsche swallows their pride and does a deal with Andretti to enter F1 using a re-badged Audi power unit in 2026, which buys them time to develop their own unit for maybe 2028 (for example).

.

Given Porsche IS Audi [both just component parts of VW AG], I don't really understand why this is a problem. :shrug:
 








A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
19,118
Deepest, darkest Sussex
How long does it take to develop an F1 engine, I would have assumed the engine is actually the easiest bit and it's the rest of it which needs to conform to the myriad regulations?
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,036
Hove
How long does it take to develop an F1 engine, I would have assumed the engine is actually the easiest bit and it's the rest of it which needs to conform to the myriad regulations?

There are only 4 different types of F1 engine I think currently; Ferrari, Mercedes, Redbull Powertrain (previously the Honda), Renault. It's definitely not easy hence most teams buy in one of these 4.
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
Oh, I didn't know that... :dunce:

Neither did I ... but I did know that Porsche was very keen on entering F1 as a separate entity and not just re-badging an Audi unit. Happy to re-badge an evolved Honda unit, but not an Audi that's based on an original Porsche design (unless that rumour isn't true).
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,106
Uckfield
How long does it take to develop an F1 engine, I would have assumed the engine is actually the easiest bit and it's the rest of it which needs to conform to the myriad regulations?

It's expensive, and doing it from scratch is a several-years exercise. Audi already have their new engine for 2026 underway (as do the existing 4 suppliers), and from what I've read the absolute latest to get started on a 2026 unit would have been the start of this year. So we're talking a minimum 4 year R&D, prototyping, testing, production timeline.

IIRC Honda's reliability woes when they returned with McLaren were partly down to McLaren's demands for the smallest engine possible to fit their aero philosophy (ironically, Mercedes are the ones who took that to an extreme this year) and partly down to them entering at least a year earlier than originally intended and being short that extra year of development time to get it right.
 




Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
30,036
Hove
Safety Car stuff...

Why is F1 so obsessed with races not finishing behind an SC?

I'm only 1 fan, but to me the most frustrating thing about an SC isn't that you might finish behind it, it's that it has such a major determination of a race. I'd rather see it finish behind the SC such as at Monza, rather than say a driver like MV completely dominating for 95% of the race, but someone wins because the red flag it and it's lost on a restart, or of course the infamous finish of last season.

They seem to think fans have to have a race finish under race conditions, but to be honest, isn't it more important for fans to see a deserving winner? Maybe I'm wrong on this one, I actually think the SC finish was the right thing to do - it would have been a travesty for MV not to have one and we get races or even championships determined because someone in 15th can't keep their car on the track.
 




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