Europe: In or Out

[jgmcdee]

The real issue is around the free movement of people, open borders, DON'T FORGET THIS FACT amongst all the media bullshit that is going on at the moment.

There are a raft of issues, of which different people have different levels of concern. Sovereignty, representation, immigration, populace, employment levels, economy, growth prospects, global influence, etc. Stating that just one of the is "the real issue" trivialises the rest, which seems unhelpful.

It's a big complex situation, and there are many valid reasons for staying in as well as for leaving. But most of the stuff you read is so biased one way or the other it's hard to obtain an objective view on things. The best recent paper I've found from the economic viewpoint that gives some idea of the numbers involved is http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06091/SN06091.pdf, which tries to be as objective as possible.

For anyone trying to work out which way to vote I would have one other word of advice: be wary of anything or anyone that pretends to know the future. If there was a clear path here then it wouldn't be such a contentious issue.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I'm not convinced it is. I think it's more about the economy and general stability and security.

Economy is no better than it was before immigration in reality, especially on the manufacturing front. Factories have been replaced with more supermarkets, takeaways, cleaning jobs, leaflet distribution jobs with Job Agencies picking up most of this type of work and the working conditions for people in this country have become a lot worse.

We have more people than ever and we are having to wait longer for the services we paid for, because the government is cutting costs.
Nothing has really changed, people are feeling worse off and living month by month.

 

[jgmcdee]

Except that's not really true is it. The MEP parliament has little power, the treaties and laws are designed and thought up by un-elected officials. Anything remotely important has to be signed off by heads of state rather than MEPs, and with heads of state you get into far bigger political / Geo-political arguments. The MEP parliament is an illusion.

Unelected officials: these are representatives of the governments that make up the EU, which are elected by the member states however they choose (and are ratified by the EU parliament). It's de jure rather than de facto but it's still a valid democratic system. The EU parliament has the ability to dissolve the commission.

The EU has a tricky balance between too much and too little power. Many who say that the EU is undemocratic or unrepresentative are also those who want its power curbed, when the basis for their attacks are precisely because its power is curbed. But increases in the power of the EU would then be used as an argument that it was becoming a super state or whatever. It is, like any political system, a construct that reflects those who built it, but it is not "undemocratic" in any absolute sense.

 

[jgmcdee]

Economy is no better than it was before immigration in reality, especially on the manufacturing front. Factories have been replaced with more supermarkets, takeaways, cleaning jobs, leaflet distribution jobs with Job Agencies picking up most of this type of work and the working conditions for people in this country have become a lot worse.

We have more people than ever and we are having to wait longer for the services we paid for, because the government is cutting costs.
Nothing has really changed, people are feeling worse off and living month by month.

And this is the other type of argument that crops up a lot. "X happened at the same time as Y so X is responsible for Y". Unless bashlsdir can show how immigration made the economy worse (although I'm a bit confused about when "before immigration" finished) it's about as relevant as saying "Economy is no better than it was before Rooney became England captain".

 

[BadFish]

The real issue is around the free movement of people, open borders, DON'T FORGET THIS FACT amongst all the media bullshit that is going on at the moment.

That may be the most important issue to you (and possibly many others) but the EU is about much more than that. Surely one should take into account all the different facets of the EU.

Ignoring any positives because of a single policy is surely folly?

Especially when it is unclear if leaving the EU is going to solve your worries.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Economy is no better than it was before immigration in reality, especially on the manufacturing front. Factories have been replaced with more supermarkets, takeaways, cleaning jobs, leaflet distribution jobs with Job Agencies picking up most of this type of work and the working conditions for people in this country have become a lot worse.

We have more people than ever and we are having to wait longer for the services we paid for, because the government is cutting costs.
Nothing has really changed, people are feeling worse off and living month by month.

Lack of manufacturing is down to lack of investment and focus by successive UK governments. Whats this got to do with immigration?

 

[5ways]

Economy is no better than it was before immigration in reality, especially on the manufacturing front. Factories have been replaced with more supermarkets, takeaways, cleaning jobs, leaflet distribution jobs with Job Agencies picking up most of this type of work and the working conditions for people in this country have become a lot worse.

We have more people than ever and we are having to wait longer for the services we paid for, because the government is cutting costs.
Nothing has really changed, people are feeling worse off and living month by month.

This has little to do with the EU I would argue. Every advanced economy faces the same threats from automation and robots. We will be subject to globalisation whether we are in the EU or not. You have to roll with the change and try to harness its opportunities.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

This has little to do with the EU I would argue. Every advanced economy faces the same threats from automation and robots. We will be subject to globalisation whether we are in the EU or not. You have to roll with the change and try to harness its opportunities.

It's all well and good rolling with the change, but change becomes a problem when you have too many people and not enough jobs. In that case isn't it better to control your borders so you get a good medium where it works for everyone? Isn't it better to take highly skilled people who go on to earn good money who can make good contributions to the system instead of people ending up minimum wage jobs paying hardly any tax and then relying on the benefits system to top up the wages?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's all well and good rolling with the change, but change becomes a problem when you have too many people and not enough jobs. In that case isn't it better to control your borders so you get a good medium where it works for everyone? Isn't it better to take highly skilled people who go on to earn good money who can make good contributions to the system instead of people ending up minimum wage jobs paying hardly any tax and then relying on the benefits system to top up the wages?

I hear what you're saying and agree with needing a balance. There are better and more imaginative ways to protect low income work than rolling up the drawbridge though. FYI I fully support workers rights but from an international perspective. And we need highly skilled jobs before we can pick and chose highly skilled workers.

Overall my take is that I want the 4 EU freedoms for the opportunities it provides to those in the UK and those outside. Let's not forget the people in the UK, especially the younger generation and how the EU enables them to travel abroad, work abroad, live abroad, study abroad (where's it's much cheaper) with total and absolute freedom. I don't want to deny those after me these same opportunities which my generation have benefited from. I don't buy the idea that outside the EU we will agree the same total freedom with 27 other countries.

 

[Soulman]

It's all well and good rolling with the change, but change becomes a problem when you have too many people and not enough jobs. In that case isn't it better to control your borders so you get a good medium where it works for everyone? Isn't it better to take highly skilled people who go on to earn good money who can make good contributions to the system instead of people ending up minimum wage jobs paying hardly any tax and then relying on the benefits system to top up the wages?

It was Labours policy to let millions in for votes, they made the benefits system more attractive than working for the minimum wage. Unfortunately this present government whilst trying to cut benefits, have hit the genuine claimants as well, but i thought they would control immigration, they have failed dismally.

 

[brighton fella]

I There are better and more imaginative ways to protect low income work than rolling up the drawbrid.

what imaginative ways would you offer as an alternative then ?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Need to be careful, people might think they are getting a good deal here.

The two groups are Grassroots Out and Leave EU
http://grassrootsout.co.uk/
http://leave.eu/

[url]http://www.fudgeoff.eu/#homepage
[/URL]

Reading numerous reports this morning it looks like it will become increasingly difficult for Cameron to spin this in a positive way. Apparently any aspect of this possible deal could be challenged in the courts despite it supposedly being legally binding because it is not enshrined in a treaty. All other EU members have a right to review and challenge the deal at any time, the European parliament could ask for amendments or reject it after we vote in a referendum. The French and some Eastern European countries are also playing hard ball. Apart from that it's all going swimmingly.

 

[Soulman]

I

. I don't want to deny those after me these same opportunities which my generation have benefited from..

My generation did not study abroad, they studied here and got apprenticeships here. I can not recall any of my school friends studying abroad.

 

[WonderingSoton]

I don't think you fully understand what the European Commission is and how it works and why it works the way it does.

Does anyone? Part of the problem is that is the runnings of the EU and how these treaties are dreamt up are about as transparent as mud, highly complex (intentionally so I feel), and totally uncountable.

Whilst I don't have time to do hours and hours of research, I do take an interest, do more reading and watching than the average, and have genuinely tried to form a reasoned opinion over recent months.

For example I took the time to listen to a talk the former Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta gave at the London School of Economics recently on the possibility of Brexit and the future of the EU more generally. It's out there on record in print and available as a podcast if you wish. Terrifying stuff if you ask me, he represents the European political class perfectly and he talks plainly about his view that that the idea of a nation state is coming to an end. The answer to Europe's problems is apparently a federal superstate. We need an EU Finance Minister and an end to national autonomy to save the Euro and safeguard the future of the European people. Complete fanaticism, all laid out openly.

These are the people we're dealing with here, who we're trying to negotiate with. Anyone think we'll be able to achieve anything through negotiation with these people? The more research I do and the more I hear from these people, the more opposed to them I have become.

Most on the left of the IN campaign either have no idea about this and as you accuse me, don't understand how Europe works, and are simply desperate to (perhaps understandably) appear on the opposite side to Farage. Or more worrying actually welcome the above scenario.

 

[brighton fella]

Reading numerous reports this morning it looks like it will become increasingly difficult for Cameron to spin this in a positive way. Apparently any aspect of this possible deal could be challenged in the courts despite it supposedly being legally binding because it is not enshrined in a treaty. All other EU members have a right to review and challenge the deal at any time, the European parliament could ask for amendments or reject it after we vote in a referendum. The French and some Eastern European countries are also playing hard ball. Apart from that it's all going swimmingly.

cameron's got no chance at all but if he does get something it will be something totally meaningless as the EU will most likely change it after the referendum anyway...

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I'm not sure. With any negotiation you start high and work towards the middle. There is no point low-balling from the get-go - it's a legitimate strategy and this could be a better deal for it.

Going from wanting to restrict EU workers to reduce immigration numbers to adjusting in work benefits over a short period with zero influence on immigration is hardly starting high working towards the middle. Not far off total capitulation in my book. Speaking of EU immigration ...

EU migrant surge has seen 1m come to Britain in the past five years

The number of EU migrants working in Britain has risen by nearly 1million in the past five years after an influx of Eastern Europeans, according to official figures.

Nearly one in nine workers in Britain is now a foreign national after the number of EU migrants surged to 2million in between September and December last year.

More than half of the EU migrants are Eastern Europeans, including a record 201,000 Romanians and Bulgarians who are now working in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...m-come-to-Britain-in-the-past-five-years.html

I seem to remember Mr Farage saying Romanians would come here in large numbers and the political establishment ridiculing him for scaremongering.

 

[Soulman]

Does anyone? Part of the problem is that is the runnings of the EU and how these treaties are dreamt up are about as transparent as mud, highly complex (intentionally so I feel), and totally uncountable.

Whilst I don't have time to do hours and hours of research, I do take an interest, do more reading and watching than the average, and have genuinely tried to form a reasoned opinion over recent months.

For example I took the time to listen to a talk the former Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta gave at the London School of Economics recently on the possibility of Brexit and the future of the EU more generally. It's out there on record in print and available as a podcast if you wish. Terrifying stuff if you ask me, he represents the European political class perfectly and he talks plainly about his view that that the idea of a nation state is coming to an end. The answer to Europe's problems is apparently a federal superstate. We need an EU Finance Minister and an end to national autonomy to save the Euro and safeguard the future of the European people. Complete fanaticism, all laid out openly.

These are the people we're dealing with here, who we're trying to negotiate with. Anyone think we'll be able to achieve anything through negotiation with these people? The more research I do and the more I hear from these people, the more opposed to them I have become.

Most on the left of the IN campaign either have no idea about this and as you accuse me, don't understand how Europe works, and are simply desperate to (perhaps understandably) appear on the opposite side to Farage. Or more worrying actually welcome the above scenario.

As soon as the EU tried to foist their flag on us (and the rest of the EU countries that have their own flag) i realised they just wanted ONE superstate. In other words dampening the countries laws, traditions and the right to decide what is best for their OWN people.

 

[BadFish]

My generation did not study abroad, they studied here and got apprenticeships here. I can not recall any of my school friends studying abroad.

My old man went and studied plastering for a year in Germany in the 60's. He spent about five years of his childhood living in Malaysia while my Grandfather was in the Police over there after the war.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Does anyone? Part of the problem is that is the runnings of the EU and how these treaties are dreamt up are about as transparent as mud, highly complex (intentionally so I feel), and totally uncountable.

Whilst I don't have time to do hours and hours of research, I do take an interest, do more reading and watching than the average, and have genuinely tried to form a reasoned opinion over recent months.

For example I took the time to listen to a talk the former Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta gave at the London School of Economics recently on the possibility of Brexit and the future of the EU more generally. It's out there on record in print and available as a podcast if you wish. Terrifying stuff if you ask me, he represents the European political class perfectly and he talks plainly about his view that that the idea of a nation state is coming to an end. The answer to Europe's problems is apparently a federal superstate. We need an EU Finance Minister and an end to national autonomy to save the Euro and safeguard the future of the European people. Complete fanaticism, all laid out openly.

These are the people we're dealing with here, who we're trying to negotiate with. Anyone think we'll be able to achieve anything through negotiation with these people? The more research I do and the more I hear from these people, the more opposed to them I have become.

Most on the left of the IN campaign either have no idea about this and as you accuse me, don't understand how Europe works, and are simply desperate to (perhaps understandably) appear on the opposite side to Farage. Or more worrying actually welcome the above scenario.

Good post. I think quite a few people who seem passionately pro EU are fully signed up to Britain becoming a region within a Superstate but rarely admit this is the case.

 

[brighton fella]

Does anyone? Part of the problem is that is the runnings of the EU and how these treaties are dreamt up are about as transparent as mud, highly complex (intentionally so I feel), and totally uncountable.

Whilst I don't have time to do hours and hours of research, I do take an interest, do more reading and watching than the average, and have genuinely tried to form a reasoned opinion over recent months.

For example I took the time to listen to a talk the former Italian Prime Minister Enrico Letta gave at the London School of Economics recently on the possibility of Brexit and the future of the EU more generally. It's out there on record in print and available as a podcast if you wish. Terrifying stuff if you ask me, he represents the European political class perfectly and he talks plainly about his view that that the idea of a nation state is coming to an end. The answer to Europe's problems is apparently a federal superstate. We need an EU Finance Minister and an end to national autonomy to save the Euro and safeguard the future of the European people. Complete fanaticism, all laid out openly.

These are the people we're dealing with here, who we're trying to negotiate with. Anyone think we'll be able to achieve anything through negotiation with these people? The more research I do and the more I hear from these people, the more opposed to them I have become.

Most on the left of the IN campaign either have no idea about this and as you accuse me, don't understand how Europe works, and are simply desperate to (perhaps understandably) appear on the opposite side to Farage. Or more worrying actually welcome the above scenario.

exactly the left are totally blinded by this, as you rightly say the more you research the subject the more you understand what they are striving to achieve and it isn't very pleasant. it is not something i wish to pass down to my kids and grandchildren.