Europe again. Unaccountable and undemocratic. This sums it up.

[Guinness Boy]

Let's put it this way, what is the greater affront to British democracy, the unelected Houses of Lords or the EU Commission, there is no contest. Your choice to stay in in light if Greek shenanigans speaks volumes.

As continually demonstrated by [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] they have roughly the same levels of power. However commissioners are nominated by their member countries whereas the Lords is made up of a combination of deliberately created Peers and people who just happen to have been born with a title. The second response is incomplete, I said I might not stay in it by 2017, which is when the referendum will be, if the Greek situation, and other conditions, have deteriorated.

As for WW2 I am not going down that rabbit hole........there were plenty of current EU states fighting and sympathetic to the German cause, just as there are on this thread.........you know who you are.

No, let's get it out there. Axis powers included current EU members Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria as well as Italy who I already mentioned. The Allies in Europe included the now extinct Soviet Union and Poland. All of those countries with the exception of Italy subsequently made up an Eastern European communist bloc and all are now vastly different than they were during either of those periods. What's the relevance to committee decisions on olive oil?

History by the way is always relevant.........people like you than want to say things are not relevant because they happened 80 years ago only do so for the matters you don't want to be reminded of.

The Greeks are battling that conundrum right now..........

History is IMPORTANT. But I'd love to see you link, say, the Ming Dynasty to the creation of the internet. Not all history is relevant to all current affairs and its relevance and importance naturally decreases over time. By taking one period in European history as a cause but ignoring all the others you distort the relevance still further. What really interests me is why you will constantly make the Nazis synonymous with the EU but not the Warsaw Pact. Are you an old commie?

 

[cunning fergus]

The Commission cannot do anything outside of what it is asked to do by the Council or the MEPs. And even then the Council and MEPs have a final say. It therefore has no power. The clues are there in the words commission and delegated. Even your paste alludes to this.

Looking at it another way (as you're seemingly blinded by something) the best example you can find of this supposedly all powerful, crazed autonomous machine which no one can stop....... is a decision on olive oil? Have I got this right?

No, you are right, let's not worry about olive oil, let's look at something more important like TTIP, and how the creation of this agreement and all of its corresponding delegated and implementing acts are being lined up........

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-e...ommission-is-trying-to-smother-debate-on-ttip

You can defend the European Commission all you like, the facts are the no one votes these people into power to create the law.........they have more power than any other institution.........

http://www.socialeurope.eu/2015/04/understanding-the-european-unions-facade-democracy/

This is not to ignore the role of the European Parliament, but the European Parliament is evidently subordinate to the elected Commission, if it wasn't Martin Schultz would be negotiating with Merkel, Hollande and Tsipras but he wasn't, it was Juncker.

The Commission is no different from the other unelected technocrat power brokers like the IMF and ECB imposing their demands on democratic governments.

This framework is by design not good fortune, your blind obedience to how it is a progressive force for good is laudable but misguided...........TTIP will make the undemocratic decisions made by the EU Commission in the olive oil industry look like a tea party.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Since you were obviously being a back to front and being belligerent i have established the below.

Technically, there is no such thing as the "EU" passport. What is commonly referred to as an "EU" passport is a passport from one of the European Union member states such as France or Germany which has the European Union symbol on it.

Okay. Next time I fly to the UK I'll raise your point under the HUGE sign which says EU Passports.

 

[cunning fergus]

As continually demonstrated by [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] they have roughly the same levels of power. However commissioners are nominated by their member countries whereas the Lords is made up of a combination of deliberately created Peers and people who just happen to have been born with a title. The second response is incomplete, I said I might not stay in it by 2017, which is when the referendum will be, if the Greek situation, and other conditions, have deteriorated.



No, let's get it out there. Axis powers included current EU members Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria as well as Italy who I already mentioned. The Allies in Europe included the now extinct Soviet Union and Poland. All of those countries with the exception of Italy subsequently made up an Eastern European communist bloc and all are now vastly different than they were during either of those periods. What's the relevance to committee decisions on olive oil?



History is IMPORTANT. But I'd love to see you link, say, the Ming Dynasty to the creation of the internet. Not all history is relevant to all current affairs and its relevance and importance naturally decreases over time. By taking one period in European history as a cause but ignoring all the others you distort the relevance still further. What really interests me is why you will constantly make the Nazis synonymous with the EU but not the Warsaw Pact. Are you an old commie?

No HT is wrong.........the unelected EC makes the laws, the Parliament approves them, it is infinitely more powerful.

The role of the Commission has extended much further into areas like the Greek crisis and the influence of Juncker in the negotiations was central. Martin Schultz and the role of the Parliament was by contrast marginal. As it is intended to be.

Don't forget Finland (their Air Force still use swastikas) and fascist Spain, or the role of Vichy France, plus the Germans had plenty of volunteers from Holland, Belgium, France (check out the Bretons) and other occupied areas like Croatia.

After the war Ireland afforded war criminals asylum and we could go on, it was not as binary as you would like to make out.

I am an old socialist, you pro EU zealots need to be called out for what you are, greedy tory capitalists.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, you are right, let's not worry about olive oil, let's look at something more important like TTIP, and how the creation of this agreement and all of its corresponding delegated and implementing acts are being lined up........

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-e...ommission-is-trying-to-smother-debate-on-ttip

You can defend the European Commission all you like, the facts are the no one votes these people into power to create the law.........they have more power than any other institution.........

http://www.socialeurope.eu/2015/04/understanding-the-european-unions-facade-democracy/

This is not to ignore the role of the European Parliament, but the European Parliament is evidently subordinate to the elected Commission, if it wasn't Martin Schultz would be negotiating with Merkel, Hollande and Tsipras but he wasn't, it was Juncker.

The Commission is no different from the other unelected technocrat power brokers like the IMF and ECB imposing their demands on democratic governments.

This framework is by design not good fortune, your blind obedience to how it is a progressive force for good is laudable but misguided...........TTIP will make the undemocratic decisions made by the EU Commission in the olive oil industry look like a tea party.

Numerous people are picking you up on your total misunderstanding of how the Commission works. It's no secret how it works. But you choose to believe some nonsense you have found on the net. I give up. I'm out.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No HT is wrong.........the unelected EC makes the laws, the Parliament approves them.

Jesus wept. Please, slow down, take a breath and go and read how law is made. Please please do it. Just for your own sake. It's no secret how it happens. All the commission can do is PROPOSE.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No HT is wrong.........the unelected EC makes the laws, the Parliament approves them, it is infinitely more powerful.

The role of the Commission has extended much further into areas like the Greek crisis and the influence of Juncker in the negotiations was central. Martin Schultz and the role of the Parliament was by contrast marginal. As it is intended to be.

Don't forget Finland (their Air Force still use swastikas) and fascist Spain, or the role of Vichy France, plus the Germans had plenty of volunteers from Holland, Belgium, France (check out the Bretons) and other occupied areas like Croatia.

After the war Ireland afforded war criminals asylum and we could go on, it was not as binary as you would like to make out.

I am an old socialist, you pro EU zealots need to be called out for what you are, greedy tory capitalists.

Think you need a rest mate. You're starting to jibber. Take some time out.

 

[Guinness Boy]

No HT is wrong.........the unelected EC makes the laws, the Parliament approves them, it is infinitely more powerful.

The role of the Commission has extended much further into areas like the Greek crisis and the influence of Juncker in the negotiations was central. Martin Schultz and the role of the Parliament was by contrast marginal. As it is intended to be.

Don't forget Finland (their Air Force still use swastikas) and fascist Spain, or the role of Vichy France, plus the Germans had plenty of volunteers from Holland, Belgium, France (check out the Bretons) and other occupied areas like Croatia.

After the war Ireland afforded war criminals asylum and we could go on, it was not as binary as you would like to make out.

I am an old socialist, you pro EU zealots need to be called out for what you are, greedy tory capitalists.

Don't forget Italy flip flopped, Franco was officially neutral and pragmatic and at times aided both sides, and Hungary negotiated with the allies and was invaded in 1944. The pont remains that the next 70 years have not been entirely irrelevant to Europe's current make up and actually, through the process of chronology, more so. Feel free to move to North Korea btw.

 

[cunning fergus]

Numerous people are picking you up on your total misunderstanding of how the Commission works. It's no secret how it works. But you choose to believe some nonsense you have found on the net. I give up. I'm out.

Ha, hardly...........

As I have stated, the unelected European Commission can implement regulations which do not require the member states elected Govt to approve through implementing legislation. They go straight on the Statute book..........no vote by national elected representatives.

The Unelected European Commission is also delegated powers to implement laws, including under urgency procedures under Lisbon.

The very same unelectedCommission is also the EU arm negotiating trade treaties like TTIP.

If you or anyone else think the unelected Commission is subordinate to the European Parliament you are mad.




If you want to celebrate that as a victory of democracy and transparency good luck

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Okay. Next time I fly to the UK I'll raise your point under the HUGE sign which says EU Passports.

Using that argument there is a single passport called "Non-EU Passports" - after all there's a sign at the airport that says it.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Jesus wept. Please, slow down, take a breath and go and read how law is made. Please please do it. Just for your own sake. It's no secret how it happens. All the commission can do is PROPOSE.

I know you're subservience to the European project is unwavering but there really are instances that the EC can make regulations without the agreement of the parliament - it's called the CNS procedure.

Regardless, I suggest you go and ask the Greek people if they feel there is any real democracy in the EU. For someone banging on about how bad the right wing is and how socialism is the answer you seem to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the right wing capitalist polices of the EU.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

We don't need this organisation in the middle taking 55 million pounds a day of our money, and on top of that telling everyone what they can and cannot do. Every country could trade without restriction, with their own currency, make their own rules and everyone would be better off.

 

[Simster]

I know you're subservience to the European project is unwavering but there really are instances that the EC can make regulations without the agreement of the parliament - it's called the CNS procedure.

You're every bit as bad with your insistence that the EU is all bad. Your rant yesterday about lack of democratic accountability was case in point, especially given the rather gaping holes in our own democracy.

Regardless, I suggest you go and ask the Greek people if they feel there is any real democracy in the EU. For someone banging on about how bad the right wing is and how socialism is the answer you seem to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the right wing capitalist polices of the EU.

Yes, let's ask the Greeks. Let's ask them WHO voted their feeble centre-right government in. The one that cosied up to various partners and bent every rule going to ensure they were part of the Eurozone.

Let's be clear about this - the Greece mess is nothing to do with democracy. If I've got a credit card debt, I can't "vote" that I don't need to pay it back. The point about Greece is that the EU ought to be a project based around peace, stability and learning previous lessons. My major issue is the astonishing lack of empathy from the German and French interests. Not with EU democracy.

 

[Buzzer]

Alex Dawson and Pastafarian have both seemingly managed to comprehend my post and reply. It isn't that difficult surely? Unless of course you deliberately don't want to understand . I think you're being a little disingenuous here.

Coming from you that's a bit rich. No worries, I think you've overplayed your hand with regards the obsequious support for the EU over the last few months. A euro shop Crodonilson.

 

[beorhthelm]

Jesus wept. Please, slow down, take a breath and go and read how law is made. Please please do it. Just for your own sake. It's no secret how it happens. All the commission can do is PROPOSE.

i'm bemused how you make this point as if its nothing of consequence. the power to draft legislation is one of the main powers of any government. and its a power that the elected EP does not have, while the unelected EC does have. the powers of the EP are revise and make amendments, which can be ignored, or revoke an existing act. while these are considerable powers, they are also binary - all or nothing - with the prospect of revoking legislation it agreed with, so that power is seldom (never?) applied.

 

[Guinness Boy]

We don't need this organisation in the middle taking 55 million pounds a day of our money, and on top of that telling everyone what they can and cannot do. Every country could trade without restriction, with their own currency, make their own rules and everyone would be better off.

55 million is gross. [MENTION=5200]Buzzer[/MENTION] has already acknowledged it is £33 million net because of return of subsidy. The CBI has calculated that every family is £3000 a year better off due to EU membership (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94b18486-4318-11e3-8350-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3fwpw8E3T) and unless you're a combination of Robert Fogel and Mystic Meg you have no idea of the impact of a Brexit on our GDP and employment.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

55 million is gross. @Buzzer has already acknowledged it is £33 million net because of return of subsidy. The CBI has calculated that every family is £3000 a year better off due to EU membership (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94b18486-4318-11e3-8350-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3fwpw8E3T) and unless you're a combination of Robert Fogel and Mystic Meg you have no idea of the impact of a Brexit on our GDP and employment.

Your right I have no idea of the impact of exiting the EU, but I'm fed up with this scaremongering we have to put up with. £33 million a day is still a lot of money to be sending out. What do we actually get for our £33 million pounds a day? What actually are we paying for apart from the free movement of people.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Your right I have no idea of the impact of exiting the EU, but I'm fed up with this scaremongering we have to put up with. £33 million a day is still a lot of money to be sending out. What do we actually get for our £33 million pounds a day? What actually are we paying for apart from the free movement of people.

Imagine if there was a handy guide you could google

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Imagine if there was a handy guide you could google

Thanks for the link. I was looking at this part
Millions of jobs could be lost as global manufacturers move to lower-cost EU countries. Britain's large foreign-owned car industry would shift into the EU and sectors linked to EU membership such as aerospace would also suffer. Airbus production could move to France and Germany, pro-EU commentators claim.

If production is cheaper in lower cost EU countries why haven't manufacturers already moved production from the UK. What's the difference for them if we left the EU?
Who should I listen too, our politicians or the boss of JCB
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-lift-burden-of-bureaucracy-on-uk-businesses

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Thanks for the link. I was looking at this part
Millions of jobs could be lost as global manufacturers move to lower-cost EU countries. Britain's large foreign-owned car industry would shift into the EU and sectors linked to EU membership such as aerospace would also suffer. Airbus production could move to France and Germany, pro-EU commentators claim.

If production is cheaper in lower cost EU countries why haven't manufacturers already moved production from the UK. What's the difference for them if we left the EU?
Who should I listen too, our politicians or the boss of JCB
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-lift-burden-of-bureaucracy-on-uk-businesses

I'm baffled by Mr JCB's comments about less business red-tape being outside of the EU. Most people who trade between the UK and the EU will tell you it's a pretty seamless affair due to the EU freedoms. They will also tell you how much more difficult it is to trade with non-EU nations. Hans Kray Fan Club mentions the myriad issues he has with dealing with Switzerland for example.