[Cricket] England vs Australia, Ashes 4th test - Old Trafford

[Bold Seagull]

It's very straight forward. One day champions and struggling top order techniques in Test cricket. Go figure.

It's more endemic than just England though. Cricket around the would has placed huge importance on the short format. Counties battling for big crowds for the short forms don't want to spend time nuturing kids with a couple of shots but you can't get them out - what use are they in the county tournaments when the championship is almost reduced to a side show infilling feature dates between the big short format comps.

Can the English county game produce the next Cook, Strauss or Trescothick? Do they even want to, does it make any financial sense for them to be picking that type of player over a Roy that will thrill their short format crowds?

The County game this year pretty much enabled Australia to set up for winning the Ashes. By having a block of championship games at the start of the season, Australia were able to get a number of players into county teams – I mean seriously, could we have helped anymore with their preparations?

 

[BensGrandad]

One man was the difference Steve Smith without him we would possibly have won the series. As has been said the authorities knew what they were doing when they banned him for short time instead of 5 years as it should have been.

 

[Gwylan]

I don't recall England being able to get a ball changed all series, and Aussies had 2 or 3 swapped.

This is nonsense. It's not an umpire judgment. There's a hoop that's used to pass the ball through: if it can't go through, it's changed; if it can go through, it's not. Are you seriously implying that the umpires take a different hoop out with them depending on who's bowling? You're entering into the world of paranoia there

 

[Bold Seagull]

One man was the difference Steve Smith without him we would possibly have won the series. As has been said the authorities knew what they were doing when they banned him for short time instead of 5 years as it should have been.

Without him we needed a once in a lifetime batting performance from Stokes, and a series of horrendous errors by the Aussies to snatch a win from certain defeat. I honestly don't think you can say without him we would have won. He's made a huge difference, but a player still has to play in his place. Khawaja was dropped but he has a better average than the rest of the England team. It might have been closer, I still think we would have struggled.

An article on cricinfo summed it up for me, England have a team of BIG reputations with SMALL averages.

 

[blue-shifted]

You might be right, but on the flip side Australia are dropping Khawaja who has a better average than everyone in the England team apart from Root, and Root is only a shade over 40. The rest of them have poor averages over a period of time, not just everyone is shit, some of them are flattering to deceive. You don't get clean bowled as many times as Bairstow has as well as LBWs and say it's just the coach and attitude. Fundamentally, England's batting in particular has been dire.

I think we matched their bowling other than having little understanding of how to get Smith out, but our batting is just woeful. The decision to take the momentum from the world cup and think you can immediately turn the likes of Roy into a test player is flabbergasting. We have the likes of Pope and Foakes who did really well just cast aside because the WC bubble was bound to transfer into the test team. What an absolute mistake that has been.

Butler / Bairstow together has been an unmitigated disaster for the middle order. Root having to move from no.4 a huge mistake.

I do agree it's not all the players. Ed Smith and James Taylor sat in the stands in their shades like rock stars have a lot to answer for in the selection process over the last year. I have some sympathy for Bayliss who was told to win a world cup and he's done that, but I'm not sure the memo also read 'at the expense of the test side. A indication of the management process is giving the players the decision to rest or not after the world cup. Bairstow decided to play against Ireland, but only because he was terrified of a decent performance from Foakes or Butler with the gloves. That is no way to run a team.

We've got NZ and South Africa now in the winter, followed by Windies and Pakistan next summer. 12 tests to have a real overhaul of what we're doing selection wise, and attitude. That the counties simply don't want to produce or pick any test players anymore doesn't help – who wants to have an opener on their books with only 3 shots when there are lucrative short format tournaments to win? They'll be far better test batsmen in league cricket than in the county game at the moment, because unless they have a range of shots, they'll be picking the guy who has.

This was a really poor Ashes quality wise, Smith aside who was obviously so outstanding as to be almost mystical, the rest on both sides are bang average compared to previous Aussie / English teams. Cummins and Hazlewood have bowled well enough, but have made a meal at times of shifting this shocking England batting.

AND, you and others moaning about England getting that world cup win due to the over throws, what the hell was that ball change yesterday!? Could the umpires have picked a better replacement ball, what an absolute joke that was, Smith's face said it all, it was like Xmas had come early. Totally changed the complexion of the afternoon. Went from ball doing nothing to hooping round corners. Indicative of disgraceful umpiring all series. You simply cannot grab a ball that flippantly at that crucial stage of a match. I don't recall England being able to get a ball changed all series, and Aussies had 2 or 3 swapped.

An interesting read and I agree with much of what you say

You seem to be putting a bit of blame on the counties for developing players to win short form. Well yes, but I think the 2020 cash, both from here and abroad has infected the think of all parties, so…….

The players, I don’t think, want a reputation as having a strike rate of 20. That won’t help them get their IPL contracts, so a lot want to position themselves as the teams dasher and let the others do the blocking.
The ECB aren’t promoting or scheduling the Championship in a way which is likely to develop test players and that needs to be reversed.
The selectors are selecting on one day reputations or form. Roy being the chief example, I agreed with his selection at the time, purely as we know he has the winning mindset for top level international cricket, though playing his as an opener was a sign of a desperate lack of alternatives. I know he’s played at 4 for his county, but if you’re going to play him for England, to me he looks more like a 6 at test level.

There’s a bit of back to basics needed to win at test level. The ECB’s guiding thought, with every decision they make should be along the lines of “what would Geoffrey Boycott think of this”. So for example, CC performances should form the basis of test selection. Players should be played in their best positions. I’d keep Root on as captain, (though we’ve had miles better). Agree with people saying Pope and Foakes should be in.

 

[dazzer6666]

Nothing to lose for the last test so what about the following changes Pope for Roy, Foukes for Bairstow and giving the captaincy to Stokes as a 1 off.

Pope and Foakes potentially yes, but please not the captaincy for Stokes. He's already carrying too much weight on his shoulders and looks exhausted

 

[Bold Seagull]

This is nonsense. It's not an umpire judgment. There's a hoop that's used to pass the ball through: if it can't go through, it's changed; if it can go through, it's not. Are you seriously implying that the umpires take a different hoop out with them depending on who's bowling? You're entering into the world of paranoia there

The choice of ball that replaced the old ball IS the umpire's judgement.

Steve Smith's face said all you need to know when it was changed yesterday. The ball they got back was massively different from the one they changed. There is a responsibility of the umpire to pick a ball that was most like the old ball from the box of balls they are presented with. That didn't happen yesterday.

 

[blue-shifted]

This is nonsense. It's not an umpire judgment. There's a hoop that's used to pass the ball through: if it can't go through, it's changed; if it can go through, it's not. Are you seriously implying that the umpires take a different hoop out with them depending on who's bowling? You're entering into the world of paranoia there

You're right about the hoop there, but the new ball selected has to be similar to the previous one and if it's behaving very differently, I think this could be looked at a bit more closely

 

[Bold Seagull]

An interesting read and I agree with much of what you say

You seem to be putting a bit of blame on the counties for developing players to win short form. Well yes, but I think the 2020 cash, both from here and abroad has infected the think of all parties, so…….

The players, I don’t think, want a reputation as having a strike rate of 20. That won’t help them get their IPL contracts, so a lot want to position themselves as the teams dasher and let the others do the blocking.
The ECB aren’t promoting or scheduling the Championship in a way which is likely to develop test players and that needs to be reversed.
The selectors are selecting on one day reputations or form. Roy being the chief example, I agreed with his selection at the time, purely as we know he has the winning mindset for top level international cricket, though playing his as an opener was a sign of a desperate lack of alternatives. I know he’s played at 4 for his county, but if you’re going to play him for England, to me he looks more like a 6 at test level.

There’s a bit of back to basics needed to win at test level. The ECB’s guiding thought, with every decision they make should be along the lines of “what would Geoffrey Boycott think of this”. So for example, CC performances should form the basis of test selection. Players should be played in their best positions. I’d keep Root on as captain, (though we’ve had miles better). Agree with people saying Pope and Foakes should be in.

Very true. The only team the County schedule suited was the tourists.

 

[BensGrandad]

As we are desperately in need of an opener what is happening with Hales.

 

[blue-shifted]

Pope and Foakes potentially yes, but please not the captaincy for Stokes. He's already carrying too much weight on his shoulders and looks exhausted

Yep, Stokesy is the sort who’d take everything on his own back and leave himself unchanged for 20 overs to try to get the wicket. Not sensible

Root is the best there for the job, His win numbers are good, but to me lacks a bit of steel and is the least inspiring England captain I can remember. I would hope we would promote from outside the group if it came to it, but I don’t have any names.

 

[blue-shifted]

We should be helping the tourists. As should every home side. Good test cricket is more important than any series win. It just seems as though we're the only ones doing it.

Very true. The only team the County schedule suited was the tourists.

 

[Bold Seagull]

We should be helping the tourists. As should every home side. Good test cricket is more important than any series win. It just seems as though we're the only ones doing it.

Yeah, traditionally welcoming warm up games and providing a tourist side with all they need is fine. I'm talking more about allowing counties to sign Aussie players on short term contracts to play the early months of the County Championship. That had nothing to do with the touring side par se, but everything to do with preparing their players.

 

[dazzer6666]

As we are desperately in need of an opener what is happening with Hales.

Hasn't played championship cricket for 2 seasons.................

 

[Eeyore]

Better team won........Aussies have a better bowling attack, better fielding and have Smith batting who is light years ahead of anyone on either side.

Root’s captaincy is shite, but we don’t have a ready replacement. Please do not give it to Stokes and **** his game up.

Would like to see Foakes in the side (easily the best keeper we have) - either Buttler or Bairstow to make way for him.

Biggest issue we have is lack of a quality spinner.

Jack Leach has made a perfectly decent start to his Test career with 25 wickets at 25. He's got a better average than Lyon during this series.

England's problem is in the top order. That with an unwillingness to make changes.

I find it hard to believe there are no capable players in the shires worth a call up.

 

[BensGrandad]

Hasn't played championship cricket for 2 seasons.................

Why is that, I didnt realise, but on the flip side nor had David Shepherd when he was brought back in an emergency and scored a ton. Form is temporary class is permanent, that is not to say Hales has the class, but we are desperate for an opener..

 

[blue-shifted]

Yeah, traditionally welcoming warm up games and providing a tourist side with all they need is fine. I'm talking more about allowing counties to sign Aussie players on short term contracts to play the early months of the County Championship. That had nothing to do with the touring side par se, but everything to do with preparing their players.

It’s in everyone’s interests that test cricket is of a high quality as possible. It’s also in everyone’s interests that home teams don’t always win (yes I know they didn’t here, but this has been the most common outcome all over the world for years and the effect needs to be reduced).

I’m in favour of touring players getting a game for a county before a big series. The ECB can’t stop the counties employing Aussies. This is just evidence that they’ve prepared properly, our players should be doing it in other countries.

 

[dazzer6666]

Why is that, I didnt realise, but on the flip side nor had David Shepherd when he was brought back in an emergency and scored a ton. Form is temporary class is permanent, that is not to say Hales has the class, but we are desperate for an opener..

He decided in 2018 to focus on limited overs only. Only speculating but probably financial reasons - can make a fortune travelling around the world jobbing in the various T20 leagues globally. His 21 day drug ban earlier this year wouldn't help his chances anyway even if he was remotely interested.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It’s in everyone’s interests that test cricket is of a high quality as possible. It’s also in everyone’s interests that home teams don’t always win (yes I know they didn’t here, but this has been the most common outcome all over the world for years and the effect needs to be reduced).

I’m in favour of touring players getting a game for a county before a big series. The ECB can’t stop the counties employing Aussies. This is just evidence that they’ve prepared properly, our players should be doing it in other countries.

The Australians would never let it happen.

 

[Bold Seagull]

He decided in 2018 to focus on limited overs only. Only speculating but probably financial reasons - can make a fortune travelling around the world jobbing in the various T20 leagues globally. His 21 day drug ban earlier this year wouldn't help his chances anyway even if he was remotely interested.

If we're going back in time to previously tried players, Gary Ballance continues to top the County batting averages.