England playing away to Poland, at Wembley.

[Simster]

The facts still say we drew two of the four games you mention and lost another by one goal to a team that won the tournament. We were lucky to draw against Italy in 2012 I admit, but we were actually very unlucky to lose twice to Portugal in 2004 and 2006, and against Brazil in 2002 (people only moan about that because we couldn't score against ten men, but ignore the rest of the match). Surely all these results do is prove where England are in the pyramid, i.e. below the best 5/6 sides in the world but as good as most others.

What do you realistically EXPECT of England? That's a genuine question. I am comfortable with the fact that we are a second tier nation. We are not a footballing power and will never be among the top six favourites for any tournament, but we are one of the better countries in the second tier who, on their day, can live with the best. It also only takes one tournament where we enjoy a bit of momentum, a shock win or two, a fortunate draw or surprise exits for some big hitters elsewhere and we COULD win it. It's a long shot every time, but I still live in hope that we can do it. The fact you seem so annoyed suggests you genuinely expect more than that?

This just proves that football is a game of opinions where statistics can be easily manipulated to prove one's point of view.

I expect us to get to the last 16 usually, but we ought to be capable of getting to a semi once a decade, not once every 40 years. Our resources and population are comparable to France, Spain and Italy - all 3 of those nations have records that absolutely shit all over ours. So does that of the Netherlands (population 13.5m). Our track record in my lifetime (42) is probably worse than that of Portugal. Even Greece and Denmark have won a POT in that time FFS.

 

[Simster]

But expectations SHOULD be massively lower this time round , I think it's a case of accepting we're not one of the best teams, and just enjoying the ride. Most of the more dickish players are gone now, and have been replaced by young players who seem genuinely hungry to play for the shirt. I think the outlook for being an England fan is the best it's been in AGES.

Expectations being low is not a good thing for a nation like ours. I could accept it if I felt the FA was making necessary changes to improve in the long run. But they're not. We'll continue to be shit and these hungry youngsters will soon start acting like arrogant twats and embarrassing the country.

 

[El Presidente]

The facts still say we drew two of the four games you mention and lost another by one goal to a team that won the tournament. We were lucky to draw against Italy in 2012 I admit, but we were actually very unlucky to lose twice to Portugal in 2004 and 2006, and against Brazil in 2002 (people only moan about that because we couldn't score against ten men, but ignore the rest of the match). Surely all these results do is prove where England are in the pyramid, i.e. below the best 5/6 sides in the world but as good as most others.

What do you realistically EXPECT of England? That's a genuine question. I am comfortable with the fact that we are a second tier nation. We are not a footballing power and will never be among the top six favourites for any tournament, but we are one of the better countries in the second tier who, on their day, can live with the best. It also only takes one tournament where we enjoy a bit of momentum, a shock win or two, a fortunate draw or surprise exits for some big hitters elsewhere and we COULD win it. It's a long shot every time, but I still live in hope that we can do it. The fact you seem so annoyed suggests you genuinely expect more than that?

Agreed. England are the Albion of international football.

Second tier,hope to get up a bit further, but unlikely to be worrying anyone even if they do.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Agreed. England are the Albion of international football.

Second tier,hope to get up a bit further, but unlikely to be worrying anyone even if they do.

Except without the Spanish-speaking flair players, obviously.

 

[Mellotron]

Expectations being low is not a good thing for a nation like ours.

Err YES IT IS. It is a much MUCH better thing than them being overly high, as we've seen for the last 10 years. I'm really looking forward to this coming summer England-wise.

 

[Notters]

I'm sad for you lot. Genuinely.

It's a majority view now i think. I feel the same

 

[Mellotron]

It's a majority view now i think. I feel the same

Understandable immediately after WC2010 - not now, we're way past all that.

 

[Simster]

Err YES IT IS. It is a much MUCH better thing than them being overly high, as we've seen for the last 10 years. I'm really looking forward to this coming summer England-wise.

I agree that having low expectations of this team is more reasonable, because they're nowhere near good enough to be troubling the best in the world - they are necessarily lower because 40 years of mediocrity finally seems to have sunk in. But that is not what I am saying. I am saying it is a bad thing that we are having to make this adjustment in expectations, given the wealth, resources and population at our disposal in this country.

 

[Stat Brother]

I agree that having low expectations of this team is more reasonable, because they're nowhere near good enough to be troubling the best in the world - they are necessarily lower because 40 years of mediocrity finally seems to have sunk in. But that is not what I am saying. I am saying it is a bad thing that we are having to make this adjustment in expectations, given the wealth, resources and population at our disposal in this country.

But how much worse (or even better) is this current team of 'no hopers', than the 'world beaters' (TM tabloid media) of 10-20 years ago?

 

[Simster]

But how much worse (or even better) is this current team of 'no hopers', than the 'world beaters' (TM tabloid media) of 10-20 years ago?

I've no idea, and I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make.

 

[Simster]

There is no sudden readjustment of expectations, the way you are talking makes it sound as though we are at a 40-year low point.

In that case I've not made myself very clear. We're not at a 40 year low point. I'd consider this an average England team (or maybe very slightly worse if pushed). The previous 40 years have produced next to nothing. In fact, outside tournaments hosted at home, we've only ever reached one semi final EVER, in 60 or 70 years of international competition.

All I'm saying is that expectations are finally being adjusted, because we consistently fail to produce teams good enough given our resources.

 

[Stat Brother]

I've no idea, and I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make.

All the, media fuelled, talk of high expectations for the previous generations of England teams, verses the, media fuelled, kicking this current team has endured.
Had me wondering how different better/worse the teams of say 2000 and 2013 are.

Bearing in mind in 2000 we were perceived as world beaters, and now up until Friday PM, we would be lucky to qualify.



Edit: I don't believe, for one minute, the current team would be deemed so bad, had 'Arry been appointed manager.

 

[Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews]

I bet Wembley will have record alcohol sales for a match.

when I followed England regularly you couldn't buy alcohol in the stadium at qualifiers (only friendlies) (that may have changed) I remember the bar at The Olympic Stadium in Barcelona being rammed at half time, perhaps the narrative 'Sin Alchool' was just seen as a moral statement?

 

[Icy Gull]

I'm up there with the most negative of England fans but I was hugely encouraged by how we tried to play football as it should be played against Montenegro, poor though they may have been. The young players look hungry and quite useful too.

I am actually looking forward to the England game tonight, although I fully accept I may be let down again by a piss poor performance, Never mind though, it's been a long time since I actually wanted to watch England.