[Politics] Donald Trump 2024

[BadFish]

Have you considered that your definition of ‘socialism’ might differ from American’s? And might also depend on whether you are speaking to a Democrat or Republican?


Yes, I agree, when you look at Bernie Saunders and AOC but they still a represent a minority faction to the far left of the Party - However before battling with the Brits over whether or not the Democrats are ‘flirting with socialism’, it is always best for people to define their terms first - you may not be talking about the same thing after all..

The ‘socialism’ you refer to, is probably not the classic ‘socialism’ we would define in the UK - ie that as being embodied in the old Labour Party Constitution of the Clause 4 definition of socialism below - which most political commentators here would use as a starting template. In fact only a minority of Americans would see State/Government ownership to the means of production and control of services as a defining criteria at all:

Clause 4


The point being, in any discussion about ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ about ‘Socialism’ or any other ‘ism, we need first of all to agree on our usage of the terms.

View attachment 179747

The Meaning of "Socialism" to Americans Today

Asked to define socialism, 24% of Americans mention "equality," while 17% say it is government ownership of the means of production.

news.gallup.com

\Americans today are most likely to define socialism as :
- connoting equality for everyone,
- the provision of benefits and social services,
- people being social and getting along with one another.

I love the fact that these are what Amercians think socialism is yet they also see it as a terrible terrible thing.

After careful consideration i am totally against equality, provisions of benefits and services and people getting along with each other. Trump is much better!!.

How the f*** has such a great nation got here?

Of course this part might be the best answer to my question.

"About a quarter of Americans were not able to give an answer."

 

[peterward]

FACT CHECK: Setting the Record Straight on Bidenomics | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

Believe what you want to I guess, consider the source.

But I can guarantee you that there is not one US poster on here who will say (honestly) that they are better off now than they were 3 years ago.

There isnt anybody in any western democracy who can claim it vs 3 years ago.

Oh I've heard Tango Mussolini claiming gas prices were at record lows because of him....Nice soundbite, but add it to the 30k+ official lies he's told as its utter bullshit.

Global oil prices were dropping from the mid teens (dropped over 35%) and the global market crashed entirely due to a Russia/Opec spat in 2020, so much so that you could literally pick up free oil from some refineries if you had capacity to ship and store it.

Guess what, it had f*** all to do with Trump though the market drops and crash reflected at the gas station. "Was so much cheaper and better under Trump". It wasn't because of Trump at all.

Covid happened in 2020 as all western economies went for quantitative easing, pumping in billions to prop up banks, business and economies, just a year after TRUMP LOST Putin launches the biggest war in Europe since WW2 sending oil prices surging and leading to GLOBAL Inflation, of which no country was immune, though US has faiired better than many.

So get behind the empty soundbites with global realities and your statements are just hot air.

If Biden was 2016-2020 and Trump 2020-2024 or any other combination of former presidents, the economic picture would've been same for neither Trump nor Biden had any control over oil market drop then crash, covid or Russian invasion of Ukraine which were the catalysts for Global economic forces that have by far been the largest movers of the economic picture in the US as the UK and euro zone.

Of course though, it was all Trump good and all Biden bad in MAGA land.

 

[Machiavelli]

Well that didn't take long

97 minutes, to be precise.
Beyond anecdote, it'd be helpful if someone posted some robust statistics on this matter.

 

[Bodian]

97 minutes, to be precise.
Beyond anecdote, it'd be helpful if someone posted some robust statistics on this matter.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/02/...ace-trump-biden-key-question-avlon/index.html - newspaper, but presumably based on stats.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christ...economy-is-much-stronger-than-four-years-ago/ - four years rather than three.

 

[Me Atome]

A thought occurred to me while driving up today:-

Isn't a centre right 'socialist' government absolute perfection?

That is the governance we crave and occasionally have until they also become corrupted by power.

Well yes, it's what we think we want, and vote for, and get. A government that will please most of the people most of the time. I'm not sure that in itself defines a good government.

 

[Stat Brother]

Well yes, it's what we think we want, and vote for, and get. A government that will please most of the people most of the time. I'm not sure that in itself defines a good government.

No it's not what we vote for.
We only vote for it when the Conservative government has shit the bed so badly we all crave a reset but don't have the stones to go all in Socialist.
It's where we are at now, where we were post Major and where we will be in 25 years time.

 

[peterward]

A thought occurred to me while driving up today:-

Isn't a centre right 'socialist' government absolute perfection?

That is the governance we crave and occasionally have until they also become corrupted by power.

Fiscally conservative, socially liberal with social justice at its centre. A lot of the Nordic countries have a good balance.

Denmark is a prime example, free market, capitalist welfare state.

And it doesn't necessarily mean if has to be high tax ideologically. Just what pragmatically maximises tax take for public services whilst balancing against business growth and creation. Ireland is low tax and runs a budget surplus.

Nordic Countries Aren’t Actually Socialist

Denmark, Norway, and Sweden shouldn’t be held up as socialist utopias.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[Crawley Dingo]

I have no intention of wasting my time browsing his posting history and don’t particularly care where he posts thanks, I was just suggesting he follow his own desire to post on here less and focus on the football threads

I blocked Badfish as he is nothing more than a left wing attack dog and he is still following me around with his smear campaign and encouraging others with his toxic output, i.e. attacks by proxy. Maybe you should check his posting history? This also looks like a harassment campaign @Bozza

Enjoy your echo chamber.

 

[Stat Brother]

Man changes name to Literally Anybody Else and announces US presidential run​

Man changes name to Literally Anybody Else and announces US presidential run

Texas man says he is unsatisfied with Donald Trump and Joe Biden and says new name ‘isn’t a person, it’s a rally cry’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Zeberdi]

I blocked Badfish as he is nothing more than a left wing attack dog and he is still following me around with his smear campaign and encouraging others with his toxic output, i.e. attacks by proxy. Maybe you should check his posting history? This also looks like a harassment campaign @Bozza

Enjoy your echo chamber.

Why are you still talking to me?

I think its best if we avoid each other in this thread.

Seriously, as for ‘attacking by proxy’? I don’t get influenced by anyone else about how I feel about other people, neither online nor irl. I have no desire to ‘check @Badfish’s posting history’, than I have of yours. I make up my own mind based in my own intereactions. My issues with you that I expressed last week were because you on many occasions have been really rude and frankly insulting at times to me directly and your response last week to a carefully thought out reply I had given you to a question you had asked me was the last straw.

However, you do have a right to express an political opinion, the last thing I would want on any political thread (or any other threads) are one-sided debates and I certainly don’t support any form of bullying, trolling or mocking people for their political opinions (provided they are reasonably held and not rooted in the hatred of others).

@Lasvegas also gets a pile on too at times but he manages to engage in a way that is also civil and friendly.

Perhaps a good start would be telling us why you are so vested in a Trump presidency (to the extent that you are) when you are not living in the US or are American - or are you?

 

[nwgull]

No it's not what we vote for.
We only vote for it when the Conservative government has shit the bed so badly we all crave a reset but don't have the stones to go all in Socialist.
It's where we are at now, where we were post Major and where we will be in 25 years time.

We are miles further up shit creak now than we were in May 1997 (two days before Hereford).

Back on topic though, early signs of tide turning? BetFair no longer have Trump/Republicans odds-on to win.

 

[marlowe]

This is a fun game. If you click on the link and keep pressing refresh you can watch the shares in Truth Social (DJT) plummet...

nasdaq djt share price - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[nwgull]

This is a fun game. If you click on the link and keep pressing refresh you can watch the shares in Truth Social (DJT) plummet...

nasdaq djt share price - Google Search

www.google.com

Brilliant. Those shares have about as much underlying value as an NFT. The funny thing is that the price will have been inflated by Trump fans, and Trump fans only.

 

[Zeberdi]

\Americans today are most likely to define socialism as :
- connoting equality for everyone,
- the provision of benefits and social services,
- people being social and getting along with one another.

I love the fact that these are what Amercians think socialism is yet they also see it as a terrible terrible thing.

After careful consideration i am totally against equality, provisions of benefits and services and people getting along with each other. Trump is much better!!.

How the f*** has such a great nation got here?

Of course this part might be the best answer to my question.

"About a quarter of Americans were not able to give an answer."

The piece I posted over page shows that Democrats and Republicans interpret ‘socialism very differently - that was partly my point. Not all Americans do see ‘socialism’ as a terrible thing - clearly things like Obamacare and DACA are about equality and provision of services..

Dems see ‘socialism’ in a more positive light because they interpret it as ‘benefits and provision of services’, Republicans have a negative view of ‘socialism’, tending to define it as government control of the means of production (nationalised industry) and control of the economy (cf to laissez faire).

The best on the table I posted was that 6% of Dems and 5% of Reps think ‘socialism is talking to people, being social and getting on with people’ - well at least a small minority of Reps and Dems almost agree on something, even if it is the most absurd interpretation of ‘socialism’ you’ve ever heard of

 

[BadFish]

Why are you still talking to me?


Seriously, as for ‘attacking by proxy’? I don’t get influenced by anyone else about how I feel about other people, neither online nor irl. I have no desire to ‘check @Badfish’s posting history’, than I have of yours. I make up my own mind based in my own intereactions. My issues with you that I expressed last week were because you on many occasions have been really rude and frankly insulting at times to me directly and your response last week to a carefully thought out reply I had given you to a question you had asked me was the last straw.

However, you do have a right to express an political opinion, the last thing I would want on any political thread (or any other threads) are one-sided debates and I certainly don’t support any form of bullying, trolling or mocking people for their political opinions (provided they are reasonably held and not rooted in the hatred of others).

@Lasvegas also gets a pile on too at times but he manages to engage in a way that is also civil and friendly.

Perhaps a good start would be telling us why you are so vested in a Trump presidency (to the extent that you are) when you are not living in the US or are American - or are you?

I think the 'pile on' is more to do with numbers, it's only Las Vegan and CD that are trump supporters so they get lots of replies. As you say Las Vegan is gracious and intelligent with his replies so we are enjoying engaging with him. (even 'left wing attack dogs' like me ).

 

[BadFish]

The piece I posted over page shows that Democrats and Republicans interpret ‘socialism very differently - that was partly my point. Not all Americans do see ‘socialism’ as a terrible thing - clearly things like Obamacare and DACA are about equality and provision of services..

Dems see ‘socialism’ in a more positive light because they interpret it as ‘benefits and provision of services’, Republicans have a negative view of ‘socialism’, tending to define it as government control of the means of production (nationalised industry) and control of the economy (cf to laissez faire).

The best on the table I posted was that 6% of Dems and 5% of Reps think ‘socialism is talking to people, being social and getting on with people’ - well at least a small minority of Reps and Dems almost agree on something, even if it is the most absurd interpretation of ‘socialism’ you’ve ever heard of

My impression is that America and Americans see socialism negatively., possibly a hangover from McCarthyism and too close to being a commie bastard.

Obama care kind of backs up my thinking. Any kind of universal healthcare took years to implement, it was hard to implement and as soon as Obama left office the next guy started to dismantle it. It doesn't show that they particularly embraced it.

As you say though it depends on the definition being used.

 

[Bodian]

Perhaps a good start would be telling us why you are so vested in a Trump presidency (to the extent that you are) when you are not living in the US or are American - or are you?

This.

 

[Stat Brother]

Perhaps a good start would be telling us why you are so vested in a Trump presidency (to the extent that you are) when you are not living in the US or are American

Dear lord, the poster in question is only invested in one thing - getting under the skin of other posters.
Tbh they are doing such a phenomenal job it's hard not to be impressed.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Bodian]

Dear lord, the poster in question is only invested in one thing - getting under the skin of other posters.

But why? For what purpose?

 

[Stat Brother]

But why? For what purpose?

Shits and giggles.

Laughing their heads off as another 3 page essay is directed at them, which they have no intention of reading.
Just wait a couple of days then see how long it takes to bait another one.