[News] diversity equality and inclusion

[jcdenton08]

This is wrong, I suspect commonplace, and is, or should be, illegal.

But I suspect it is the consequence of the company employing and/or failing to effectively train staff involved in creating the recruitment rubric.

Targets are useful for one purpose only. They define the outcome that can be expected if a process is fair.
If targets are not met then the management needs to look into the process.
Unfortunately people think they also have a duty to game the system so the targets are met.
That is not the same as seeking to make recruitment fair and open and mitigate against biases.

Which I think is exactly what they were trying to get me to do, because they would be technically two new “DEI” (or whatever) hires, albeit only for 8 weeks - and it would have to be me responsible for them, as well as the smooth running of the project backed up with two completely inappropriate staff I’D just hired.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sounds so simple, doesn't it - except that it allows someone (or a panel) to define the 'best person for the job' according to their skin colour or sex/gender, or perhaps in their own image; "we want to appoint someone just like us."

Suppose a recruitment panel was all-male, and only ever appointed men to their company's vacancies - does that mean that none of the women applicants were ever good enough, or that the all-male panel were defining the 'best' candidate in a biased manner?

After all, before EDI became more extensive in the workplace, why were most companies dominated by men the higher up the organisation you went?

Then there is promotion! Glass ceilings.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Which I think is exactly what they were trying to get me to do, because they would be technically two new “DEI” (or whatever) hires, albeit only for 8 weeks - and it would have to be me responsible for them, as well as the smooth running of the project backed up with two completely inappropriate staff I’D just hired.

You rightly pointed out that the nature of the jobs weren’t suitable. Was there any comeback?

 

[Berty23]

You aren’t upsetting me - I’m enjoying a sensible discussion on a sensitive topic on NSC for once!

As I said before, the job was to hire two crew - the job requirements were rigging lanterns at height, performing a load in and fit up of the set and props (carrying the set out of a lorry and then putting it together, under supervision from me and the production manager), fly work (working at height tying off and lifting heavy ropes above the stage for scenery and curtains) and general repairs and maintenance of any issues which arise.

The only indication I was given, was that my job fell within the “arts” budget, because it was co-produced by the local borough council and in one of their venues. Arts inclusivity targets are extremely high. This is because the majority of venues are publicly funded, and very often their existence is dependent on grants from the Arts Council England (ACE), who have a very firm internal DEI policy.

If hire rates of, what basically amounts to in real terms, White British males is too high, they risk losing ACE funding, as well as being a media target.

As a result, within the arts, inclusive hire rates are set extremely high, regardless of the genetic makeup of the local community, their education and relevant experience.

This particular job was in a predominantly white, working class area, leaving me to somehow spirit up a “target hire” out of thin air.

When it was found out I interviewed two, and didn’t give them the jobs, I was chewed out. But if I’d have been forced to hire them, I wouldn’t resigned and sued anyway, as they were completely inexperienced and unable to safely work in an H&S risk environment, let alone help me run a show for 900 paying customers a night.

Thanks. I suspect the person demanding certain behaviours was an idiot and didn’t understand what is going on. I would suggest in that case it could be a guaranteed interview if people Apply but given no one would then it is easy to push back. This is the sort of thing that whistle blowing type policies can help with. Calling out ridiculous stuff.

If would be similar to an organisation having to cut 50% of staff and this being applied across the organisation. In a specialist role with two people this would equate to one of the two people. If one was removed then what happens if sickness and annual leave. It could be dangerous. So the cuts would have to be at a different place to reach 50% because it is business critical. The same way it is daft to apply targets on non-existent people.

I grew up in south Devon. There were three black kids in my secondary school of almost 1500 kids. Setting a local target of black employees would be dumb.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Christ.

Culture War Stand Chat.

Thread ignore.

On the contrary, it has been quite civilised. What a shame you switched off.

 

[jcdenton08]

You rightly pointed out that the nature of the jobs weren’t suitable. Was there any comeback?

They were just really pissy, and I wasn’t invited back the following year. I wasn’t bothered, I did the same job for slightly less money somewhere closer to home.

Maybe their processes were just f***ed. I don’t know. I can only say what I experienced, which means it’s a thing that does happen. I know because I was there!

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I’ve seen references to gender, age, qualifications, physical appearance but nobody has mentioned disability.

Many people with chronic illness or a disability find it hard to get work. That isn’t to say they can’t do the work.

I'm reminded of a visit to my first pub I owned, by the disability (?) officer from the council. She asked me a series of questions, one was if I could lower the bar to allow a wheelchair user to serve behind the bar. I just looked at her shaking my head. After being grilled for about a hour I was about to blow. At this point one of my staff, a mature woman, spoke out. She said to her that she had massive mental health issues and I fully understood if she had a wobble she could go home at any point. And that I was the only person to offer her a job in over 10 years. My cleaner then piped up that he was disabled with parkinsons and that again I knew his limitations though he'd often joke he was bloody good at polishing tables with his right hand.

This officer left firmly put in her place about my policies.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Absolutely, and disabled people are a protected group by law. You’re preaching to the converted here.

But again, I can only relay back to my own personal experiences in my job.

Not everyone can do every job. Sorry, but it’s true.

Yes but that's not the problem wrt your experience. If the 'minority' candidate could 'do the job' you should not be compelled to select them if there is a better 'non-minority' candidate.

I can see that examples of 'positive discrimination' that genuinely happen quickly become part of folk lore, especially among working class white males, some of whom are completely convinced the whole of the UK is discriminating against them.

Since this makes no sense at all, they need an explanation they can grasp that makes it all make sense.
And there we have it. 'Woke'. 'Liberal'.
Then it becomes easy to believe that 'muzzies' are being given council houses and hand outs in preference to whites. It is part of the 'woke agenda'.

I think that if we are going to push back against the tide of Reform, we need to destroy the myths around positive discrimination. That probably means working much harder to ensure that the best candidate gets the job while at the same time unashamedly working to facilitate DEI.
Selecting to meet quotas is wrong and should never happen.
Making everyone, no matter what age gender race or orientation feel welcome to apply should be the goal.
Then we need to work harder to mitigate against biases when making the selection.
This DOES happen greatly in many sectors now, including my own.

 

[darkwolf666]

Luckily, as noted, I take steps (as does our process) to not let this be the clincher.
Anyway, exceptions may disprove a rule, but they have very little effect on a probability.

So is that a yes or no to giving Boris a job?

 

[jcdenton08]

Yes but that's not the problem wrt your experience. If the 'minority' candidate could 'do the job' you should not be compelled to select them if there is a better 'non-minority' candidate.

I can see that examples of 'positive discrimination' that genuinely happen quickly become part of folk lore, especially among working class white males, some of whom are completely convinced the whole of the UK is discriminating against them.

Since this makes no sense at all, they need an explanation they can grasp that makes it all make sense.
And there we have it. 'Woke'. 'Liberal'.
Then it becomes easy to believe that 'muzzies' are being given council houses and hand outs in preference to whites. It is part of the 'woke agenda'.

I think that if we are going to push back against the tide of Reform, we need to destroy the myths around positive discrimination. That probably means working much harder to ensure that the best candidate gets the job while at the same time unashamedly working to facilitate DEI.
Selecting to meet quotas is wrong and should never happen.
Making everyone, no matter what age gender race or orientation feel welcome to apply should be the goal.
Then we need to work harder to mitigate against biases when making the selection.
This DOES happen greatly in many sectors now, including my own.

/thread basically, in my opinion. Agree with every single word.

 

[jcdenton08]

So is that a yes or no to giving Boris a job?

Boris “BJ” Johnson has had enough “jobs”. On the other hand at least it won’t result in him having another overgrown pubic louse with his latest bint. Sorry, not a fan.

 

[jcdenton08]

At this point, can we all agree that if someone comes and tries to shit the harmony and polite disagreements and good debate up, that we all ignore it, no matter our views?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Which I think is exactly what they were trying to get me to do, because they would be technically two new “DEI” (or whatever) hires, albeit only for 8 weeks - and it would have to be me responsible for them, as well as the smooth running of the project backed up with two completely inappropriate staff I’D just hired.

Yes, this is so bad, and reflects the craven feebleness of some people.
Being seen to be seen to be doing something being far more important to them than doing the right thing.

I am involved in various initiatives to improve 'reproducibility' in drug research.
The first thing needed is to ensure studies are blinded and randomized.
Unfortunately people who use bits of animal tissue, cell cultures and even in vivo animals very often were never trained to do blinded and randomized studies. Their PhD supervisors never did it. "John Vane got the Nobel prize for showing how aspirin works but he never did blinded and randomized studies".
So we have a 'dry pipeline' where Pharma can't invent new drugs.
When I advocate blinding and randomization I get pushback in any number of ways.
"Not necessary". "Not practicable".
f*** me, if the data come from a gamed study that allows unconscious bias to run riot, the data are f***ed.
(Unfortunately I struggle to not make my point in exactly that format).
Instead my 'colleagues' come up with other solutions.
"Transparency" is one.
If you say exactly how you did the study then all will be well, they claim.
So a finding will go from false to correct if the researcher admits they did not blind or randomize the study?
These are university academics, mostly professors.
If they are so comfortable with cant, bluster, absurdity and bullshit.....
You can imagine how council managers can f*** up their DEI and recruitment with positive discrimination.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So is that a yes or no to giving Boris a job?

His fat arse wouldn't get anywhere near the interview seat.

 

[carlzeiss]

Late 80's I attended an evening presentation given by an "investment" company in East Grinstead .
Dozens of prospective future millionaires eagerly sat waiting for the companies chief sales executive to begin his sales pitch
When he arrived on the stage he opened with a question to the excited prospects gathered in the hall .
" Before I start is there anyone here from Portsmouth ? "
To which one fellow put his hand up nervously and was asked to stand before being told to leave the premises immediately
Turned out the speaker was a Southampton fan and in truth the chap from Portsmouth was fortunate as the company was just a scam pyramid selling operation that ended up with them receiving fines and compensation payments totaling many millions of pounds .
The 2 weeks I spent working for them was though quite illuminating .

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

At this point, can we all agree that if someone comes and tries to shit the harmony and polite disagreements and good debate up, that we all ignore it, no matter our views?

Yes. And if I see it, meaning it isn't someone I have on ignore, I will simply put the person on ignore.

This has been a very enjoyable chat. I have particularly enjoyed being challenged. Admitting to my biases and prejudices is a relatively new thing for me, and I have found it quite liberating. At one time I would have agonized over how to 'change myself' but in fact all I need to do is seek to ensure my biases don't influence my decisions, especially when they affect other people.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Currently I'm self employed but would like to do a part time job to earn a few more pennies. I thought I'd go to the job centre, first time in my life.

Moments ago I received this;

Volunteer Your Way to Work Come and meet organisations within the local area to talk about the positive impact volunteering can have on your employability prospects. Volunteering can help you build confidence, gain valuable experience, and grow your professional network. This event is being supported by Disability Employment Advisors who will be available to assist during this event. How to get involved Date: Weds 4th June Time: 10.30am / 11am / 11.30am / 12noon Place: Hastings Jobcentre 2nd floor (please note, no lift access) How: Reply to this message with your preferred time for an appointment to be booked

So the event is supported by the DEA but it's at the Jobcentre 2nd floor no lift.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[jcdenton08]

Currently I'm self employed but would like to do a part time job to earn a few more pennies. I thought I'd go to the job centre, first time in my life.

Moments ago I received this;

Volunteer Your Way to Work Come and meet organisations within the local area to talk about the positive impact volunteering can have on your employability prospects. Volunteering can help you build confidence, gain valuable experience, and grow your professional network. This event is being supported by Disability Employment Advisors who will be available to assist during this event. How to get involved Date: Weds 4th June Time: 10.30am / 11am / 11.30am / 12noon Place: Hastings Jobcentre 2nd floor (please note, no lift access) How: Reply to this message with your preferred time for an appointment to be booked

So the event is supported by the DEA but it's at the Jobcentre 2nd floor no lift.

You couldn't make it up.

That’s very “The Thick of It”

 

[AstroSloth]

has it occured that "encouraging diverse job applicants" is really hiring on basis of increasing diversity, prioritising candidates based on some demographics over others with similar or better qualifications? i've had "encouragement" to hire female applicants in development roles, to "make the group look better" in words of recruitment manager (plenty of diversity across the business but not so much in developers).

or put another way, DEI looks a lot like positive discrimination under a fluffy name. We can be favour of that but also recognize what it is and consequences.

It's in a companies interests to hire a more diverse group of people as they will bring different viewpoints that others may not have.

This can help lead to better outcomes as they include different groups in their approach. So it's hiring to fill a role, do you believe that a role specifies that someone must have a degree, it is discrimination against those who didn't go to uni?

 

[Albion my Albion]

View attachment 202850at the ready.

What is it with Pringles and the British? I don't get it. Or is it just this board?