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[Politics] Dear Rishi Sunak...



CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 27, 2009
5,969
Shoreham Beach
only surprise here is the policy change has come so soon, thought they'd leave it for Labour to tackle. i didn't expect us to meet the 2030 ICE ban and gas boiler targets as they are too ambitious. its dressed up as a political switch, the dirty secret is there isnt enough electric generation coming through to achieve the aims. expect it will be further delayed in 5 or so years when EU push their deadlines back beyond 2035, as they have the same fundemental problem. we're all trying to build out a doubling of capacity while transitioning existing capacity, in 7-12 years.
Yes it all looks a bit difficult. Some real technical challenges with expecting landlords to provide modern insulation for their properties, rather than forcing renters to pay through the nose to pollute!

None of this will matter. Sunak is on borrowed time and he knows it. No mandate and no one listening.
 




Bakero

Languidly clinical
Oct 9, 2010
13,800
Almería
IMG-20230921-WA0002.jpg
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
2,947
Uckfield
Yes but, thing is, I'd love to switch to electric. I'm not a petrol-head. I have ridden in Tesla's and VW EV's and it's a great driving experience. But I'm not misinformed on cost. You can make anything sound cheaper by spreading the cost, but EV's just aren't. I did the sums when I changed cars last year. What's the point in projecting the the upfront costs of EV's in 7 years time if I were looking to change now?
The point is that you save money over the longer term and can therefore afford more in the future. Whether that's the next car you buy, or better holiday's, or a bigger TV, or whatever. It's an investment that has a guaranteed positive payout. And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, by 2030 the expectation is that EVs will be as cheap / cheaper upfront than ICE. Your switch over is nearer than you seem to think. Especially if you opened your mind to looking at second hand EVs. The days of first-gen Nissan Leaf's with knackered batteries are gone.
 


folkestonesgull

Active member
Oct 8, 2006
907
folkestone
The only issue here is not everyone can have a home charger, like people in flats, so rely on street charging, sometimes it's not always available.
No, but that's the point. It has to be, so rather than not doing it we should just do it. It's not overly difficult to get the infrastructure needed in place.
I guess there are 2 mentalities. Embrace the change we need to make and grasp the benefits.

Or fight to retain the world as it is, make the change far harder to achieve with less time and investment to do so and then complain and say I told you so...
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,194
No, but that's the point. It has to be, so rather than not doing it we should just do it. It's not overly difficult to get the infrastructure needed in place.
I guess there are 2 mentalities. Embrace the change we need to make and grasp the benefits.

Or fight to retain the world as it is, make the change far harder to achieve with less time and investment to do so and then complain and say I told you so...
The cost of installing millions of charging points in every terraced street and near every block of flats would be huge. As would the cost of removing them again, unused, if the hoped-for solid-state faster recharging batteries become technologically possible. There may be better uses for those billions?
 




Super Steve Earle

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2009
8,374
North of Brighton
No, but that's the point. It has to be, so rather than not doing it we should just do it. It's not overly difficult to get the infrastructure needed in place.
I guess there are 2 mentalities. Embrace the change we need to make and grasp the benefits.

Or fight to retain the world as it is, make the change far harder to achieve with less time and investment to do so and then complain and say I told you so...
But it isn't that simple away from a keyboard and living in the real world - the one where we actually live.I have embraced the change and did so several years ago. I want to grasp the benefits.
I am not fighting to retain the world as it is. If we do, my grandchildren won't have a world worth living in. I would have bought an EV or a hybrid last year if I could have spent the same money I spent on a 3m old pre-reg ICE with 10 miles on the clock. But without a home charge option, there just isn't the infrastructure and process there to support me and my peace of mind. And no, I won't go second hand on an EV. That peace of mind isn't there either.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,322
The point is that you save money over the longer term and can therefore afford more in the future. Whether that's the next car you buy, or better holiday's, or a bigger TV, or whatever. It's an investment that has a guaranteed positive payout. And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, by 2030 the expectation is that EVs will be as cheap / cheaper upfront than ICE. Your switch over is nearer than you seem to think. Especially if you opened your mind to looking at second hand EVs. The days of first-gen Nissan Leaf's with knackered batteries are gone.
do you reckon road pricing will coming in by 2030 or a little later?
 


folkestonesgull

Active member
Oct 8, 2006
907
folkestone
The cost of installing millions of charging points in every terraced street and near every block of flats would be huge. As would the cost of removing them again, unused, if the hoped-for solid-state faster recharging batteries become technologically possible. There may be better uses for those billions?
They aren't needed in streets.
Fast charging is needed at petrol station like facilities - we don't see people hoarding petrol at home to top up their car every evening
 




Is it PotG?

Thrifty non-licker
Feb 20, 2017
23,403
Sussex by the Sea
They aren't needed in streets.
Fast charging is needed at petrol station like facilities - we don't see people hoarding petrol at home to top up their car every evening
That may change when everyone has an EV. I don't know the stats but I'd guess the % of folk in need of charging points right now is tiny compared to what will be needed.

Just looked, less than one million now with 8 million + by 2030.

Quite a queue at petrol stations.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,322
They aren't needed in streets.
Fast charging is needed at petrol station like facilities - we don't see people hoarding petrol at home to top up their car every evening
how does grid balancing and off-peak charging work without direct connection? relying on fast charging kills the low cost benefits as those facilities are more expensive. let be honest, there's going to be a lot less cars and it'll be an affluent middle class thing to own them. those that have a drive or company car park will be able to afford this, everyone else using EV ubers.
 


Icy Gull

Back on the rollercoaster
Jul 5, 2003
72,015
As a dyed in the wool petrolhead I am bloody delighted the time frame has gone to 2035 for EV’s being the only choice for new cars

It gives Alfa more time to get their shit together :lolol:

I doubt I’ll still be driving by then :smile:
 




Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
2,947
Uckfield
do you reckon road pricing will coming in by 2030 or a little later?
Assuming you mean "on the road" cost to buy an EV vs an ICE? From what I've been reading yesterday / today, the industry expectation is that EVs will be like-for-like comparable, possibly cheaper, by 2030. A lot of that is through expected technology improvements, some from economy of scale as manufacturers switch focus from ICE to EV, and some through increasing competition in the market.

Second hand side of things is already looking a lot closer even today, though. Having a quick look on Autotrader is interesting. Looked up 2020 Zoe's (52kWh models) and they start at a little under £11k. They would have been £30k-ish new. Compare to a 2020 Clio (slightly smaller car), starting at £9.4k that would have cost under £20k new. Much heavier depreciation on the EV (second hand supply is increasing as 3-4 year leases expire, demand hasn't yet followed) and you're looking at a much smaller gap to overcome. And, IMO, that second hand EV is a far better car - it'll cost less to maintain, and have a longer remaining lifespan. The Zoe is also a slightly bigger car than the Clio. The challenge is charging, especially for those who can't at home. The infrastructure is coming, but there's still a bit of a postcode lottery.
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
2,947
Uckfield
how does grid balancing and off-peak charging work without direct connection? relying on fast charging kills the low cost benefits as those facilities are more expensive. let be honest, there's going to be a lot less cars and it'll be an affluent middle class thing to own them. those that have a drive or company car park will be able to afford this, everyone else using EV ubers.
This is ignoring the potential for new technology / different approaches to reduce the size of the problem for those who can't charge at home. For example, NIO (Chinese) are in the process of building a network of battery swap stations in Europe and plans to do the same in the UK (ahead of launching the brand in the UK). NIO's cars are designed to be able to have the battery swapped, by an automated system, in just a few minutes. So those people who can't charge at home, can instead think about getting a car with a quick-swappable battery and simple drive into a battery swap station, swap the battery, and carry on - all in around the same time it takes to stop and fill up an ICE. Potentially quicker.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,322
Assuming you mean "on the road" cost to buy an EV vs an ICE?
i mean road pricing. taxes to run on the road. at some point the drop in revenue from fuel excise duty will be covered, and EV will be liable for road pricing per mile, peak/off peak etc. maybe you haven't considered that in the guaranteed payout.
 






Pickles

Well-known member
May 5, 2014
1,316
My view here is, that whether or not this decision suits you personally or financially, doesn't really matter.
The important and relevant fact is that the government of our country has chosen to go in this direction, ( irrelevant of what we all know deep down, that net zero has to done for our grand children's future and beyond ), for one reason only, and that's votes to keep them and their chums in power, to feather their own nests even more.
Personally, whatever colour rosette, I find that totally abhorrent.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
50,270
Faversham
Im proud to have voted Conservative and Im in no doubt whatsoever today the right things were announced. We already do far more than other countries to help the plant. Just hope we dont get any oil nutters tomorrow night
Which plant?

 






dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,194
They aren't needed in streets.
Fast charging is needed at petrol station like facilities - we don't see people hoarding petrol at home to top up their car every evening
That's the point. If we get 5-minute charging in future, then we won't need street chargers; but if charging still takes 40 minutes or so, then we will. People on their way home don't stop for 40 minutes to fill up with petrol.
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,194
My view here is, that whether or not this decision suits you personally or financially, doesn't really matter.
The important and relevant fact is that the government of our country has chosen to go in this direction, ( irrelevant of what we all know deep down, that net zero has to done for our grand children's future and beyond ), for one reason only, and that's votes to keep them and their chums in power, to feather their own nests even more.
Personally, whatever colour rosette, I find that totally abhorrent.
Abhorrent that a government, in a democracy, chooses to do what people want? A bit strong IMO.
 


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