Day 9 - Wed 16th Feb - THE WHEELS ON THE BUS...

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Public Inquiry - Day Nine Report

Tuesday’s session of the Inquiry lasted only three hours. Today we paid the price, as the case for Falmer and Rottingdean Parish Councils was unveiled. It took ten hours. And the Town Hall heating had broken down. A casual observer, wandering into the council chamber in mid afternoon might have thought from the scarves and overcoats on view that people were preparing to go home. They weren’t. They were simply cold. And there were hours still to go.

John Woodruff, landlord of the Swan, had been the first Falmer resident to give evidence. He started just after 10 o’clock and finished five minutes later. He wanted a stadium on a bigger site than Falmer could offer. That was about it. I suppose he also fancied a stadium located some considerable distance from his pub. However, for some reason, he forgot to mention that particular detail.

Next came Peter Hampton, Chairman of Rottingdean Parish Council. He fancied Sheepcote Valley, Toads Hole Valley or Waterhall, in the hope that this would keep traffic out of the narrow streets of Rottingdean village. It crossed my mind that if I lived in Peacehaven, I’d probably drive to Waterhall or Toads Hole Valley by turning right at Rottingdean crossroads and heading for the A27 through those same narrow streets, whilst I’d get to Falmer by driving up Wilson Avenue to the park and ride at the racecourse. But no matter. No-one else seemed to be thinking this, because he wasn’t asked many questions.

In truth, we were all waiting for the main act. Tom Carr, Vice-Chairman of Falmer Parish Council. The man who would take up the next nine and a half hours of our lives.

He started by offering the Inquiry a fourth version of the transport projections for each of the stadium sites. But his approach to transport was rather more imaginative than what we had heard already from the Albion’s professional transport consultant. And it was more imaginative than I guess we’ll get when Lewes District Council’s man gets his chance.

In fact, it really got my imagination going. Particularly when Mr Carr was talking about transport to Upper Beeding Cement Works. What he’d really like is some government funding for an electric light rapid transport system from Shoreham railway station. But he knew in his heart that this was unlikely. So it would have to be buses. Lots of buses.

110 buses, to be precise. The sums all added up. There would be 1,467 car parking spaces at the stadium. With three people in each car, that would allow 4,400 spectators to drive. What about the remaining 17,600? Simple. They could go by bus. With eighty seats on a double decker and each vehicle doing a double run, everyone could get there. And if some people chose to walk, or cycle, or go by taxi, there’d even be a few spare seats available.

Go get a calculator and check out the numbers. While you’re doing that, try not to think what a bus queue of 17,600 people will look like, ten minutes after the final whistle has gone on a wet Tuesday night in February.

And then there’s the question of where we’ll find a bus company with 110 spare vehicles available (with drivers) who are desperate to use this huge fleet on just 23 occasions during the year. OK, 27 if we get a good cup run.

Mr Carr had an anonymous friend, apparently called Angela, who knew about transport and had contacted all the bus and coach companies in Sussex. She had assured him that there would be no problem. Lots of companies wanted to do the work. The Albion had written evidence from the Brighton & Hove Bus Company and from the largest logistics firm in South East England (who specialise in arranging big fleet hire contracts). They had both assured us that those buses simply don’t exist.

Yes they do. No they don’t. The squabble went on throughout the day. A fax was produced by the Albion from one coach company, confirming that they weren’t interested. But Mr Carr insisted that he’d had a chat with the same company and they’d said they had five 53 seater coaches and five 33 seater vehicles available. But I was just thinking ‘Hold on. I thought we needed double deckers with 80 seats’. And those 17,600 people in the bus queue were beginning to prey on my mind.

I suppose it’s easy to scoff at some of the details that come out during this Inquiry. However, Tom Carr was doing his best to steer us away from detail. He took us on a tour through all the alternative sites that Falmer Parish Council favoured. Whenever a question arose, like, for example, exactly where at Shoreham Airport a stadium might be sited, he quibbled. ‘It’s not my job to go into that sort of detail’.

But surely this Inquiry is supposed to answer some serious questions? Can a stadium be built without unacceptable environmental impacts, to mention just one. If Falmer Parish Council think that it’s not their job to say where they’d build it, John Prescott may well think that he’s not getting much help from them.

What is clear, though, is that the Parish Council is working to a quite different timescale from the Club. We want a stadium as soon as possible, because Withdean is hopeless and is preventing the football club from achieving its potential. Falmer Parish Council are content if our search goes on for years.

They argue a case for Shoreham Harbour, in the full knowledge that it could be twenty years before building there might be possible. They know that Adur District Council do not favour Shoreham Airport. But ‘things might change’.

They suggest that we hold out for a big site, with room for lots of enabling development., despite the fact that projects of that scale will take years to put together, because partners will have to be found and complex planning obstacles overcome. But this, apparently, is all for our own good. Because their approach to building a stadium will be ‘more viable’ and the Football Club will reap the commercial benefits of a shared site.

Albion supporters know that this is just not the case. It would be like queuing for a bus in the rain, with 17,000 people in front of us. We’d simply perish.
 




Cian

Well-known member
Jul 16, 2003
14,262
Dublin, Ireland
This inquiry is getting so depressing. The NIMBY's are living up their reputation of being completely clueless.

On a Saturday evening at 5 PM its hard enough to hire ONE coach in Dublin, let alone 110. Brighton is somewhat smaller, even with the rest of the catchment area its probably the same size....

Are they going to continue throwing useless arguments till the club runs out of cash?
 




Lord Cornwallis

Dust my pants
Jul 9, 2003
1,254
Across the pond
When does the club get the opportunity to shoot down theses retarded arguements?
 


Tough for everyone who has to be there like our lawyers and LB, but this is the joke bit of the inquiry, the bit we have to go through because we are a democracy. I would bet no one is paying that much attention. The inspector probably just sat there the whole day mentally undressing Jonathan Clay's lady sidekick.

Great comedy material for LB all this, but only when Lewes DC arrives will it all start getting a bit scarily important again.
 




beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,498
Re: Public Inquiry - Day Nine Report

Lord Bracknell said:
...While you’re doing that, try not to think what a bus queue of 17,600 people will look like, ten minutes after the final whistle has gone on a wet Tuesday night in February.

As a veteran of several trips to Reading, i try to block out the memories of waiting 1hr for a bus. And thats on a sunny autumn afternoon. And only 7000.
 


Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
32,230
Uffern
I'm a bit confused as to why Rottingdean PC wants Sheepcote and not Falmer. I can see that there's the fear that traffic from Newhaven. Saltdean and Peacehaven could come through Rottingdean on match days. But wouldn't Sheepcote be worse for them? They'd get the traffic from the coastal regions and traffic from Hove, Patcham, Southwick, Shoreham, Lewes etc all using the by-pass and the Falmer-Rottingdean road. It seems counter-intuitive to me.

But then, so does the stance of the landlord of the Swan - most landlords would be jumping for joy at the thought of 20k extra people passing their pub every fortnight. Strange guy.
 


Yorkie

Sussex born and bred
Jul 5, 2003
32,367
dahn sarf
Gwylan said:
I'm a bit confused as to why Rottingdean PC wants Sheepcote and not Falmer. I can see that there's the fear that traffic from Newhaven. Saltdean and Peacehaven could come through Rottingdean on match days. But wouldn't Sheepcote be worse for them? They'd get the traffic from the coastal regions and traffic from Hove, Patcham, Southwick, Shoreham, Lewes etc all using the by-pass and the Falmer-Rottingdean road. It seems counter-intuitive to me.


With Falmer, the Newhaven/Seaford contingent would use the train but for Sheepcote we'd have to use the coast road and Rottingdean.
 




Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
32,230
Uffern
Yorkie said:
With Falmer, the Newhaven/Seaford contingent would use the train but for Sheepcote we'd have to use the coast road and Rottingdean.

I know that most people would use the train to Falmer but there'd always be some who come by car - look at how many people use the P&R at Withdean despite the existence of a station down the road.

But you confirm my point that Sheepcote would mean a big increase in traffic through Rottingdean.
 




Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,533
On NSC for over two decades...
Interesting report Lord B. Nice to see that our various opponents don't seem to have grasped the concept that they need to PROVE that one of the other sites is more viable than Falmer. Plucking random figures out of the air won't stack up against PROPERLY RESEARCHED EVIDENCE.

Let's hope they keep up the good work!

:clap2:
 




Wilts

New member
Jul 5, 2003
1,772
Bournemouth/Reading
Re: Re: Public Inquiry - Day Nine Report

beorhthelm said:
As a veteran of several trips to Reading, i try to block out the memories of waiting 1hr for a bus. And thats on a sunny autumn afternoon. And only 7000.

I'm yet to see the issue with 17,600 people trying to get on buses per se. At Reading the club has said that for sell-out games where around 17,000-odd travel on buses to games, everyone is shipped away from the stadium within an hour. There is not one bus queue with 17,000 people, there are several queues, and many people are shipped straight onto buses in an orderly manner. The longest I've ever waited is 50 minutes.

I don't see what difference standing around for an hour for a bus makes when it takes an hour to drive out of a busy stadium car park, or walk miles to a car parked far away (as with many grounds). So to say that it can't be done is farcicle as they would only take a look at Reading to see how it works. What the pro-Falmer contigent should be doing is saying how the infrastructure is not feasible despite it succeeding at other locations around the UK.

Unfortunately with the road system that you have in Brighton, it appears (from previous discussions) that the infrastructure could not handle the sheer amount of people on buses, as the inner roads are narrow and small, rather than able to cope with a large increment in traffic.

For you sake I hope that the argument followed is not "17,600 people on buses, what a joke", and instead is "it may work elsewhere but in Brighton with the road system it is completely unfeasible". You don't need 110 buses in the slightest. You need 37 doing 3 trips. Or 55 doing 2 trips.
 
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Gazwag

5 millionth post poster
Mar 4, 2004
31,382
Bexhill-on-Sea
Nice to see that a full days work was done yesterday, I guess there is probably a good reason, but why can't the inquiry happen on a Monday and run for a full day every day.
 


larus

Well-known member
LB, surely the weak arguements being offered by Tom Carr add weight to our case. They need to prove that other sites are suitable. As for comments like 'Well, I've spoken to the company and....' and 'My friend Angela has told me....', this is only hearsay, no confirmation in writing that the buses are available.

This sounds like good news to me.
 




Albion Rob

New member
Re: Re: Re: Public Inquiry - Day Nine Report

Wilts said:
able to cope with a large increment in traffic.

For you sake I hope that the argument followed is not "17,600 people on buses, what a joke", and instead is "it may work elsewhere but in Brighton with the road system it is completely unfeasible". You don't need 110 buses in the slightest. You need 37 doing 3 trips. Or 55 doing 2 trips.

I think the figures quoted were 110 80-seater double deckers doing two trips.

So that would mean 55 doing four trips of 37 doing six trips.
 


Wilts

New member
Jul 5, 2003
1,772
Bournemouth/Reading
Re: Re: Re: Re: Public Inquiry - Day Nine Report

Albion Rob said:
I think the figures quoted were 110 80-seater double deckers doing two trips.

So that would mean 55 doing four trips of 37 doing six trips.

What I meant... apologies :wave:
 


The Oldman

I like the Hat
NSC Patron
Jul 12, 2003
7,220
In the shadow of Seaford Head
I was there too for most of the day and yes it was as cold as Lord B says. As for the alternative sites put forward by the Swan Landlord ( area of expertise was he had driven a taxi for 20 odd years and knew the area well!), Rottingdean Parish Council and the very important Tom Carr they were all wonderful but Falmer was totally out of the question. How could the Albion have got it so wrong?

Mr Carr found it impossible to give a staight yes or no to any question.He wanted to lecture the Inspector on a number of topics ranging from his concern about the inquiry process and the lobbying of the Deputy Prime Minister by the club and its supporters ("No weight should be given to the views of supporters" as they had not attended the inquiry) to the impact of a new community stadium and enabling commercial developments on local business. What he did not want to do was produce hard evidence for his assertions that stadia at Shoreham Airport or Beeding Cement works met the planning criteria laid down by the DPM. He had a chat on the phone or in person with someone and they had given assurances that if say you moved the runway at the airport a little to the left a stadium could be built there. (The look of puzzlement on the Inspectors face at this point was a joy to behold). You could park all the cars on the approach road to the airport and parking problem solved. And so it went on. If pigs would fly all things are possible according to Mr Carr and its the club and its supporters who have no imagination.

But this was the warm up act for Lewes District Council. When they come back next week and put forward Sheepcote and Toads Hall Valley I suspect the debate will be more realistic and where our Mr Clay will really earn his dosh.
 


Wardy

NSC's Benefits Guru
Oct 9, 2003
11,219
In front of the PC
I hope that the inspector is not fooled by this act. He must know that 17000 people in a queue for a bus will just not work. The police for one will not allow it.

It makes me mad to think that these people are allowed to slow up the process with what is just utter bollocks.
 








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