Day 15 - Tue 1st Mar - THE BUS TIMETABLES

[ShorehamGull]

Inquiry day 15 (tuesday) The Bus timetables

My View
Inquiry day 15 (01/03/2005)
Ok, we have the venue, the teams have been selected, the fans are seated, the ref is ready the blow his whistle, yes we have kicked off another week at the public inquiry.
Another morning of entering a cold council chamber, a lot of people were taking to their seats and wondering what rollercoaster we were in for today.

The usual parties were in attendance, us verses them, the muppet Nimbys which including Private Godfrey (Dad’s Army), who I believe did achieve the World record of how long he could sleep and dribble down his leg.
After about a couple of minutes things did feel warmer in the chamber and I could sit there and not have to worry about my feet turning to ice.

Mr Mogridge (Mr Mo) returned to the dock from where he had left of on Thursday afternoon, but still had to face Mr arse White first thing this morning for a cross examination.
Mr Mo who had been in the dock all Thursday afternoon, did a full day today sitting in the dock being questioned by several parties, I think at the end he had to be cut free from the chains and handcuffs that were holding him to the seat.
Bus timetables were handed out to all the relevant parties by the beautiful Megan, who once again was looking stunning. The bus timetables were an idea by Jonathan Clay so that everyone can get some idea about the bus routes around the areas of the alternative sites and how frequent they run.

Mr White started off with questions to Mr Mo about accessibility by bus to sheepcote Valley from Brighton Station, Mr Mo had not put all the bus services down so Mr White accused him of not doing his research. This ended up in a bit of an argument where neither of them could agree on whether the research had been done or not.
Mr White reads out the listed bus routes around the Sheepcote area one by one, but Miss McPherson (Brighton and Hove City Council) couldn’t keep up with Mr White’s hesitant manner of reading and shouts out “WAIT” as she scribbles the list down, Mr White does as she says and paces himself a bit more.
The main argument was about the easiest methods of getting to Sheepcote, either by bus, car, train or walking, even though I did not hear “spaceship” mentioned.
And that’s when it hit me; the club are going to supply us with rocket packets to get us to Sheepcote to avoid climbing those hills.
I have put the idea forward to Martin Perry and we will have to purchase a rocket pack with our season tickets, plus free rocket fuel if you are travelling over a certain distance.
I have noticed when Mr White Cross examines anyone, he has an annoying habit of turning to the Nimbys in the dark side and giving them a smug look, I really want to wipe that smile off his face.
The beautiful Megan left not long before the lunch break and much to my disappointment never to be seen again for the rest of the day, she probably has to cope from being famous now that she has been in the match-day programme.

Mr White cross examination went on for another 45min after lunch about transport issues on Withdean, Falmer and Toads Hole mainly about park and ride systems and residential parking areas.
From this point on I am beginning to realise that this inquiry seems in be going heavily on the evidence of transport issues more that anything else.

Mrs John Lennon haircut McKay was next to question Mr Mo about his evidence, I like to switch off a lot when this woman is talking because she does ramble on a lot.
I did catch at least two Nimby sleeping on the dark side, include Private Godfrey and Mr Big Sideburns (looks like a farmer), I think even the sight of Mrs McKay sends them into a coma.
I also noticed that Mr Brier was taking his pure white hanky from his pocket on several occasions and would either sneeze or blow his nose into it, also I could sense his boredom in all this and he looked as though he did not want to be there.
Mrs John Lennon haircut McKay was slumped in her seat after questioning Mr Mo, she was looking like she had swallowed a dead wasp, and she wasn’t looking that happy, “GOOD”

Miss McPherson is last to complete the cross examination of Mr Mo before Mr Brier concluded for the day. Miss McPherson asks Mr Mo on what fans might do on match days, Mr Mo answers that he can’t be specific on what fans do, but it depends on the type of fan, but he said that a good majority would have a couple of drinks or something to eat then proceed to the match, “Just the usual then”
Mr Mo also says that that the main London road going into Brighton would have to be closed on match days if the club were to have a 14000 seated stadium at Withdean; that should be interesting.
Mr Brier closed proceeding for the day with a few questions to Mr Mo, and that completed what was not really a very interesting day, but it can only get better.

Megan now has a copy of Saturday’s match programme, which was supplied by Martin Perry, she is now aware that she is famous with the male fans of the Albion and has a fan club.
Another day tomorrow to look forward, I wonder what is next?
C U GUYS
SG

 

[Easy 10]

Nice report SG, cheers squire

White really is an odious individual who I find intensely irritating. He deliberately employs confrontational tactics to try to throw witnesses off guard and intimidate them. I guess thats what LDC have employed him for, but his aggressive grilling of Harry Pugh last week was totally unnecessary - the very second the Inspector slapped him down, he backed off with "no further questions" - in other words, he didn't even have any questions in the first place, but just chose to bully the witness regardless. From what you say SG, it sounds as though he intends to continue with this tactic.

A POX on him, I say.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Did Mrs John Lennon haircut McKay mention her Shoreham Harbour Vision today by any chance?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

My report ...


If there’s anyone out there looking to employ a transport consultant, come along to the Public Inquiry at Brighton Town Hall. There are four of them on display and they are all auditioning.

We’ve already heard from Mark Leigh, performing for the Albion. He was impressive first time round. So much so, that he might be allowed a second appearance next week. Tony Harrison, who will appear for Lewes District Council, is indisposed at the moment. He won’t be appearing until next month.

There’s a Mr Ellis, who supports the owners of Toads Hole Valley. He gets his turn next Tuesday. But today it was a resumption of the performance by Mike Mogridge, the City Council’s man, who we first met last Thursday.

He spent most of the day being cross-examined by Robert White, the lawyer for Lewes District Council. Once again, we heard lots of numbers. There were estimates of how many people live within walking distance of various potential stadium sites. There was discussion about the difference between ‘crow fly distances’ and ‘road walk distances’. There was an argument about how many bus routes went to Sheepcote Valley (and whether Roedean Road counted as going to Sheepcote Valley or just going near Sheepcote Valley).

There were lists of bus routes, read out so fast that even some of the lawyers couldn’t keep up, and then a debate about whether bus service 57 counted at all, since it only runs on Sundays.

What did we learn? Firstly that not all transport consultants use quite the same methods to analyse data. Secondly, that they won’t actually disagree with their fellow professionals. And, thirdly, that none of the detail seems to have much to do with how people really travel.

Example – however many people live within cycling distance of a football stadium (and we have information about ten different venues), it makes not much difference, because not many people cycle to football matches.

So? The point gradually became clear. The consultants are debating something called ‘accessibility’. This is nothing to do with real people travelling.

Accessibility is transport consultants’ jargon for what estate agents call ‘Location, Location, Location’. A stadium site is ‘accessible by sustainable means of transport’ if some people live near enough to walk, some people live near enough to cycle (even if they won’t) and some people live near enough to a bus or rail service that goes near enough to make it likely (or possible) that they might use public transport on matchdays.

Real people travelling is something else. They will sometimes use buses. But only if there is ‘spare capacity’. Or, to translate from the jargon, if there’s a seat on the bus. Sometimes they will walk a bit – maybe when they get off the bus at Churchill Square, they will walk up Queens Road to the Station and catch a train. Or maybe they’ll catch a different bus at Churchill Square.

We don’t really know what they’ll do, to tell the truth, because this is ‘transport modelling’ and different transport consultants do that bit differently. To give just one example, Mr Mogridge assured us that using population figures and ‘ward centroids’ resulted in ‘lumpy data’.

So there you have it. It all sounds so confusing. Real people, sitting in the public gallery, seemed to be muttering among themselves that the important bit was how real people like us might actually travel. But we all had a sneaking suspicion that the lawyers and the planning experts were more interested in accessibility analysis and Planning Policy Guidance and Supplementary Planning Guidance. And unlumpy data.

At the end of the day, all of our transport consultants will have had plenty of opportunities to answer the question that Mr White must have asked a dozen times. ‘So, how would you advise the Secretary of State?’

It will be some weeks before we find out who the Secretary of State is most impressed with. In the meantime, my advice is that if there really is someone out there who wants to employ a transport consultant, you might consider the alternative of just talking to real people who make real journeys.

 

[Gwylan]

... A stadium site is ‘accessible by sustainable means of transport’ if some people live near enough to walk, some people live near enough to cycle (even if they won’t) ....

Ahem, they are some of us who cycle over a bloody steep hill to get to Withdean. In fact, there are several of us (cyclists that is, I can't speak for the hill-climbing)

There are probably even more who use the club's official cycle racks.

Tramsport planners always underestimate the number of people who cycle. Look at the cycle racks at Brighton station after 8.30 - they're completely chocker. Or try to use your bike for shopping and look for a place to park it safely.

While agreeing that cyclists will always be a small minority, there's no reason to say that people won't cycle. In fact, the club should be doing more to encourage it, apart from walking, it's the ultimate in sustainable transport.

That quibble aside, another excellent report Lord B.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Transport planners always underestimate the number of people who cycle.

The experts' estimates that we have heard at this Inquiry range from 0.5 per cent of home spectators using cycles to 2.0 per cent.

Withdean is said to be particularly well located to encourage cycling.

Therefore, assuming 5,500 home spectators attending each match, we should be seeing between 27 and 110 bikes parked at Withdean every time there's a game.

Mike Mogridge (who says that cyclists don't use bikes to travel to football matches) has gone for 1 per cent. It's Lewes District Council's man who is suggesting 2 per cent.

If you can demonstrate that there are more than 27 bikes at Withdean (on average, evening games included), I'll accept the point that you are making.

Roz will even take a photograph.

 

[Gwylan]

It's hard to tell how many bikes there are because they're scattered all over the place. The one and only time that I've used the official bike racks, I struggled to find a place (and that was for the Swindon game, in the rain) - but then, those racks are used by the leisure club visitors too.

I normally park my bike on the London Road and quite a few other people do too.

I would say that there were about 25 to 30 cyclists per match, maybe a few more on sunny afternoons, maybe fewer on wet evenings. I reckon that the most we've ever done is about 50.

But my point was not so much about the number of cyclists but the lack of racks that are provided (generally, not just by the Albion). I use railings rather than racks and I'm always slightly nervous that an over-zealous copper is going to take my bike away.

I would take issue with the idea that Withdean is particularly well located for cycling. It's certainly not cyclists who say that - they've been particularly vocal about the new road layouts in the area. A stadium situated on the main road out of Brighton is never going to be perfect cycling territory. There might well be more people who choose the cycling optiion for Falmer as there is an off-road cycling path (well, the pavement) all the way there.

Certainly, from a cyclist's viewpoint, Falmer is the best option, but I agree that 99% (and over) of spectators won't use this option.

 

[perseus]

"Travel to Work" figures are as good as guide as I have found for modes of transport.

In Sussex according to the 1991 Census, the travel figures were as follows:

Bikes 3% (the % of traffic in all hours is between 1% and 2%)
Buses 5%
Train 6%
Car 65%
Walk 14%

The missing 8% are stay at homes.

There is a difference for city centres. As 40% of the Albion fans actually come from the city this is where the figures have to be adjusted.

Basically, in Sussex 70% of households are car owners with 30% double or multiple owners.
This figure is less in Brighton and is about 50% of households.

I think the fans travelling by train to Withdean is something like 11%, down from 14%, very approximately. The forecast for Falmer is 19%.

As far as I know, I was the only person to cycle to the Goldstone!

I go by train to Withdean and I would do the same for Falmer (probably). Sheepcote is not going to happen, so that doesn't count. Car to Madeira Drive and walk, or car via Falmer would be inevitable, or stay at home (Sheepcote is an awkward location for me).

 

[Titanic]

As far as I know, I was the only person to cycle to the Goldstone!

I'm sorry, but i this is typical of the quality of your research and information then it only confirms what meaningless and useless drivel it really is !!

 

[sully]

I'm sorry, but i this is typical of the quality of your research and information then it only confirms what meaningless and useless drivel it really is !!

I'll second that.

I cycled to the Goldstone for a couple of years when I lived in Hollingdean.

 

[Gwylan]

I cycled to the Goldstone a couple of times as well.

Not very often as there was nowhere to leave the bike.

Perseus, you're talking bollocks.

 

[Storer68]

ABSOLUTELTY TYPICAL.

You wait weeks for a transport consultant to turn up and then four all arrive at the same time.......................

 

[perseus]

Any more? I parked my bicycle in the south-east corner opposite what used to be a church.

There was another bike there, but it was getting rustier every time, and I never saw anybody on it.

I sttarted by cycling to the railway station, but after waiting around for trains for an endless amount of time, I decided to cycle the whole way.