could have been the transfer of the century

[GT49er]

Bu88er all the politics. I just hope the little lad gets well.

 

[Tommy Tradlles]

The parents have been handcuffed whilst taken off by the local police. What crime did they commit?

 

[drew]

Are you sure............you are chucking in some pretty random speculation.

This family were quite evidently completely dedicated to their sick child, and that would have been perfectly obvious from the basis of how Aysha was supported by them through his already long standing treatment by the relevant NHS oncologists/surgeons/management. There is no question that they were not dedicated parents.

Surely the fact that the family were seeking for an alternative NHS treatment for Aysha would have indicated they wanted him to survive (and recover) as oppose to put him out his misery? The NHS may well have compelling medical reasons which oppose the parents wishes and clearly Police may not have understood this dynamic when first approached by NHS management, however had they probed sufficiently into the background of the family and this case they would have realised this was about treatment and not "abuse" or "neglect".

After all the NHS and its motives should not be beyond reproach.............

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9...-and-angry-by-the-Liverpool-Care-Pathway.html

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/04/mid-staff-scandal-wrong-call-nhs-david-nicholson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-24819973

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/suzanne-trask/nhs-cancer-treatment_b_4775147.html

http://nhap.org/nhs-england-undermining-radiotherapy-cancer-services/

I never said the parents weren't dedicated. As for the scenario, I wasn't suggesting that this what happened but it could have been. If the parents have a problem with the care their child was receiving then why haven't they made a complaint about. Why didn't they sort out funding for the treatment in Prague before taking him to Malaga? As for the Police, I doubt the hospital can give the them full details of the condition as that would be a breach of confidentiality. The parents were seeking a treatment that isn't available in the UK although the NHS do submit people for Proton treatment. Figures I think I saw quoted earlier were that out of about 140 cases where it was requested last year, 122 were agreed and went to the US at an average cost of £100k per patient. It is not always appropriate for every case.

Do we even know if the parents have been in touch with the hospital in Prague!

There is a lot more information to come out before anyone can say who has acted inappropriately.

 

[cunning fergus]

I never said the parents weren't dedicated. As for the scenario, I wasn't suggesting that this what happened but it could have been. If the parents have a problem with the care their child was receiving then why haven't they made a complaint about. Why didn't they sort out funding for the treatment in Prague before taking him to Malaga? As for the Police, I doubt the hospital can give the them full details of the condition as that would be a breach of confidentiality. The parents were seeking a treatment that isn't available in the UK although the NHS do submit people for Proton treatment. Figures I think I saw quoted earlier were that out of about 140 cases where it was requested last year, 122 were agreed and went to the US at an average cost of £100k per patient. It is not always appropriate for every case.

Do we even know if the parents have been in touch with the hospital in Prague!

There is a lot more information to come out before anyone can say who has acted inappropriately.

You didn't say they were not dedicated, you said their interests did not matter, a sentiment i consider to be unreasonable and without empathy in a situation like this. They clearly want what is best for their son.

You didn't suggest that they would kill their child however the only example you used to justify the Police action is that they may all want to commit suicide.

The parents were in discussions with the hospital, they were very complementary about the surgeons who had treated Asher, however in relation to their concerns about the ongoing treatment, they have indicated that the hospital threatened them with a care order. Given they way this case has gone, I can believe that......and given that eventuality, they probably had little choice but to act on the hoof if they wanted the proton beam treatment.

All legislative confidentiality and data protections protections would not apply if they related to a Police investigation.

Whatever the detail, they should not be in prison in Madrid, the authorities could get them to their child's bedside and sort the mess out from there...........the current situation is a f****** outrage.

 

[drew]

You didn't say they were not dedicated, you said their interests did not matter, a sentiment i consider to be unreasonable and without empathy in a situation like this. They clearly want what is best for their son.

You didn't suggest that they would kill their child however the only example you used to justify the Police action is that they may all want to commit suicide.

The parents were in discussions with the hospital, they were very complementary about the surgeons who had treated Asher, however in relation to their concerns about the ongoing treatment, they have indicated that the hospital threatened them with a care order. Given they way this case has gone, I can believe that......and given that eventuality, they probably had little choice but to act on the hoof if they wanted the proton beam treatment.

All legislative confidentiality and data protections protections would not apply if they related to a Police investigation.

Whatever the detail, they should not be in prison in Madrid, the authorities could get them to their child's bedside and sort the mess out from there...........the current situation is a f****** outrage.

Suggest you go away and read my post properly. You seem to believe as gospel everything the parents say.

 

[cunning fergus]

Suggest you go away and read my post properly. You seem to believe as gospel everything the parents say.

I did, so I don't.

I wouldn't say I believe what they say is Gospel, however they clearly have and are acting in their child's interests. Whatever the ins and outs they have lost confidence in the NHS, and the treatment they want for their child is difficult to get on the NHS, so let them go to Prague and let them pay for it.

They should absolutely not be in prison in Madrid whilst lawyers in the UK try to work out what crime they may have committed whilst their sick child is hundreds of miles away in Malaga.

All the while they remain in prison in these circumstances the motives of the NHS, UK Police et al appear all the more dubious.

 

[drew]

I did, so I don't.

I wouldn't say I believe what they say is Gospel, however they clearly have and are acting in their child's interests. Whatever the ins and outs they have lost confidence in the NHS, and the treatment they want for their child is difficult to get on the NHS, so let them go to Prague and let them pay for it.

They should absolutely not be in prison in Madrid whilst lawyers in the UK try to work out what crime they may have committed whilst their sick child is hundreds of miles away in Malaga.

All the while they remain in prison in these circumstances the motives of the NHS, UK Police et al appear all the more dubious.

But they didn't go to Prague did they! They can't pay for it because apparently they need to sell a property in Spain first. So they have a seriously ill young boy in one of the main paediatric centres in the country. If they wanted to have treatment in Prague, there would be nothing to stop them but what have they done about arranging it and funding it? If it is true about selling a property then I have to say I don't know how long that takes in Spain. Wouldn't it be better to try and secure a loan against it and then worry about selling it later?

I don't doubt that the parents want what is best for their son but that doesn't make them experts in oncology. I do however agree they shouldn't be in prison, especially as Aysha is now in a hospital. However, I disagree that them being in prison makes the motives of the uk bodies 'dubious'. The NHS would have the welfare of the child as their priority. Had they gone to Prague and had the boy admitted there and kept the NHS doctors advised all along then I doubt there would have been this furore, but they didn't, they just ran!

 

[cunning fergus]

But they didn't go to Prague did they! They can't pay for it because apparently they need to sell a property in Spain first. So they have a seriously ill young boy in one of the main paediatric centres in the country. If they wanted to have treatment in Prague, there would be nothing to stop them but what have they done about arranging it and funding it? If it is true about selling a property then I have to say I don't know how long that takes in Spain. Wouldn't it be better to try and secure a loan against it and then worry about selling it later?

I don't doubt that the parents want what is best for their son but that doesn't make them experts in oncology. I do however agree they shouldn't be in prison, especially as Aysha is now in a hospital. However, I disagree that them being in prison makes the motives of the uk bodies 'dubious'. The NHS would have the welfare of the child as their priority. Had they gone to Prague and had the boy admitted there and kept the NHS doctors advised all along then I doubt there would have been this furore, but they didn't, they just ran!

I will start on what we agree on, they should not be treated as criminals and they should not be in jail because they have not committed a crime.

The EAW was obtained (as I understand it) on basis of parental neglect; that will not be proven in this case.

The Kings claim that the NHS would not provide proton beam treatment, and if they did not continue with ongoing treatment provided by the NHS, then NHS would take Aysha into care.

I don't doubt the NHS want the best for Aysha, however they lost the parents confidence and if they want to get a second opinion then the NHS should facilitate this and not prevent it, not least if he parents were willing to pay.

You may not want to think the actions of the police/NHS/et al are dubious, but since you mentioned the importance of confidentiality previously, when this story broke it was widely reported that the parents were Jehovah's Witnesses, a point that is now apparently no longer relevant.

The religious beliefs of individuals is sensitive personal data, as defined by the 1998 DPA. Now, what shit provided that information to the media and for what purpose?

Ignorance is strength eh.........

 

[drew]

I will start on what we agree on, they should not be treated as criminals and they should not be in jail because they have not committed a crime.

The EAW was obtained (as I understand it) on basis of parental neglect; that will not be proven in this case.

The Kings claim that the NHS would not provide proton beam treatment, and if they did not continue with ongoing treatment provided by the NHS, then NHS would take Aysha into care.

I don't doubt the NHS want the best for Aysha, however they lost the parents confidence and if they want to get a second opinion then the NHS should facilitate this and not prevent it, not least if he parents were willing to pay.

You may not want to think the actions of the police/NHS/et al are dubious, but since you mentioned the importance of confidentiality previously, when this story broke it was widely reported that the parents were Jehovah's Witnesses, a point that is now apparently no longer relevant.

The religious beliefs of individuals is sensitive personal data, as defined by the 1998 DPA. Now, what shit provided that information to the media and for what purpose?

Ignorance is strength eh.........

Perhaps we need to wait and see why the NHS would not fund the Proton treatment. Currently in the UK we don't have the facilities for proton treatment but the NHS certainly fund treatment abroad where is it deemed appropriate. Also, where does it say the NHS were not willing to let them get a second opinion? As for the beliefs of the family, who released that info, was it the NHS, I doubt it, was it the Police, probably not, more likely it was some inquisitive reporter who brought it into the public domain.

 

[cunning fergus]

Perhaps we need to wait and see why the NHS would not fund the Proton treatment. Currently in the UK we don't have the facilities for proton treatment but the NHS certainly fund treatment abroad where is it deemed appropriate. Also, where does it say the NHS were not willing to let them get a second opinion? As for the beliefs of the family, who released that info, was it the NHS, I doubt it, was it the Police, probably not, more likely it was some inquisitive reporter who brought it into the public domain.

Perhaps, however that is clearly what the parents are trying to do right?

In taking Ashya abroad evidently the parents were not being supported by the NHS to that end; on the contrary the NHS contacted the police.

The Kings claim that the NHS threatened to take Aysha in to care if they did not continue with their prescribed treatment........given where we are in this case I can believe that.

OK, you can assume that, however when this story broke their religion was an aspect to the story that is not prominent now. So far the motives of their parents are unequivocally in the interests of their son, time will tell whether the NHS and Police are as pure, or whether they were playing the media.

With the dubious conduct of public officials Rotherham scandal unfolding alongside this story, I won't give the Police or the NHS the benefit of the doubt yet.

 

[drew]

Perhaps, however that is clearly what the parents are trying to do right?

In taking Ashya abroad evidently the parents were not being supported by the NHS to that end; on the contrary the NHS contacted the police.

The Kings claim that the NHS threatened to take Aysha in to care if they did not continue with their prescribed treatment........given where we are in this case I can believe that.

OK, you can assume that, however when this story broke their religion was an aspect to the story that is not prominent now. So far the motives of their parents are unequivocally in the interests of their son, time will tell whether the NHS and Police are as pure, or whether they were playing the media.

With the dubious conduct of public officials Rotherham scandal unfolding alongside this story, I won't give the Police or the NHS the benefit of the doubt yet.

Parents remove a vulnerable child from hospital against Doctors advice and disappear. Of course they are going to contact the Police. The parents motives may well be in what they perceive to be the best interests of the child but that doesn't mean they actually know what is best. As the issue of their religion has cropped up, let's use that. JWs have refused blood transfusions on the basis of religious belief. If a child is in an accident and suffered a large loss of blood (beariing in mind a child doesn't have the 8pt capacity of an adult), do you think it is in the best interests of the child for a parent to refuse a blood transfusion that will lead to the childs death? The parents may well be making the decision on the basis that they feel they are protecting the childs sprituality and what will happen to their soul once the child dies. However, do they have the right to decide that?

I don't believe that the NHS would block the parents getting a second opinion and even taking the child to Prague for a diagnosis there prior to proton treatment. But what is clear is that there has been a breakdown in communication.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

So basically the parents have removed a very sick kiddie from hospital without telling anyone and are claiming they were forced into their actions because their child wasn't receivng the treatment they felt he needed. Those with an axe to grind are jumping on this to bash the nhs and the police. With the facts in the pubic domain it would appear the parents have made a poor decision for the best of reasons and the authorities have overegged the search again for the best of reasons. Until any actual evidence comes out to the contrary i fail to see what is to be gained from the partisan screeching.

 

[drew]

So basically the parents have removed a very sick kiddie from hospital without telling anyone and are claiming they were forced into their actions because their child wasn't receivng the treatment they felt he needed. Those with an axe to grind are jumping on this to bash the nhs and the police. With the facts in the pubic domain it would appear the parents have made a poor decision for the best of reasons and the authorities have overegged the search again for the best of reasons. Until any actual evidence comes out to the contrary i fail to see what is to be gained from the partisan screeching.

Agree.

 

[DTES]

The rights of the parent vs the rights of the child: Do parents have the right to endanger their child's life? Or does the child's right to receive the best possible care trump that right?

I don't doubt the parents' intentions, but when it comes to cancer care, parents do not "know best" - by their own admission their desire for Proton treatment comes from "looking it up on American websites", hardly research that compares to the years of training the doctors have been through. The opinion of Ashya's doctors was that he needed round-the-clock treatment, and his parents took that away.

Of course they can look elsewhere for other treatments. If they want to sell a house in Spain to pay for that treatment, then go and sell the house in Spain - but why endanger Ashya's life by taking him out of hospital before you've done so?!

And as I say above, in more general terms, do parents have the right to choose medical treatment for their children against expert opinion in general? Of course it's their child, but the child has their own rights - surely the child's right to the best treatment available trumps the parents' right to overrule/choose?

I'm afraid I completely support what the police have done here.

 

[cunning fergus]

Parents remove a vulnerable child from hospital against Doctors advice and disappear. Of course they are going to contact the Police. The parents motives may well be in what they perceive to be the best interests of the child but that doesn't mean they actually know what is best. As the issue of their religion has cropped up, let's use that. JWs have refused blood transfusions on the basis of religious belief. If a child is in an accident and suffered a large loss of blood (beariing in mind a child doesn't have the 8pt capacity of an adult), do you think it is in the best interests of the child for a parent to refuse a blood transfusion that will lead to the childs death? The parents may well be making the decision on the basis that they feel they are protecting the childs sprituality and what will happen to their soul once the child dies. However, do they have the right to decide that?

I don't believe that the NHS would block the parents getting a second opinion and even taking the child to Prague for a diagnosis there prior to proton treatment. But what is clear is that there has been a breakdown in communication.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=htt...twIwAA&usg=AFQjCNHm90S8a4CubZ3HkUZLVV5bPANnNw

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/1...octors-signal-U-turn-over-proton-therapy.html

 

[father_and_son]

The parents may well be making the decision on the basis that they feel they are protecting the childs sprituality and what will happen to their soul once the child dies. However, do they have the right to decide that?

ALL the major religions place the 'spiritual protection' of a child in the hands of parents (and in some, a few other selected individuals - "God Parents"). It may not be right but it is a fundamental tenet of all the faiths. The parents absolutely have the right to 'protect the eternal soul' of their children [up to a certain point - hotly debated in the courts every time these issues arise].

(note: not at all religious and think they are deluding themselves, but in a democracy I should always defend your right to be wrong provided its not dangerously wrong)

 

[Tommy Tradlles]

I am afraid the hospital and the police have over acted in this case. There must have been a real breakdown in communication at the hospital which the management are now reviewing. The parents may be misguided but they are the parents of the child and not the state authorities. They are been treated their criminals by being handcuffed, shut up in a police cell and separated from the child. The Spanish police were acting on the request of our police. Once it was established that the child was safe they should have been left alone. The Hampshire police need to review their actions.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm afraid I completely support what the police have done here.

just to be clear, and ram home the point of the problem here: you are happy that the police issued an european arrest warrant in responce to a missing person report, with no clear probable cause of any crime having actually occured? which the CPS are now trying to retract as they realise its been over the top.