[Albion] Conclusions from the ESL fiasco .......

[blue-shifted]

So. 50+1

How do you implement it to a club with existing shareholders?

I agree with those saying this would be more about controlling voting rights than ownership of shares ... however there are huge practical and legal difficulties

This ESL project, and project big picture before it was about control as much as money. How can owners of a private business be compelled to give up voting rights? By what mechanism?
What would constitute a major decision which fan shareholders need to get involved with?
What about commercially sensitive info? How can this be kept secret when there are fan shareholders on board?
How do fans select the fan shareholders on the board?
Some clubs are publicly listed and some are not, would this make a difference?

Some of these issues are surmountable, and of course have been done elsewhere, but would need serious consideration and debate. To me it always comes down to how do you reverse engineer this? How do you force someone to give up their voting power who already has it? If it's easy, why hasn't this happened to RB Leipzig?

I would love to see it happen. But for it to happen, football needs to work through these issues. We can't just say we want it to happen and it will happen.

 

[blue-shifted]

While the German model may be liked by some, the chances of this happening here on a mandatory basis is less than zero.
The only reason Johnson and other cabinet ministers were actually vocal on the ESL is that they believed it would give them good headlines ahead of the May Local elections and also push the sleaze headlines into the background.
With some clubs foreign owned, anti-trust lawsuits would follow immediately any change was announced. I also don't believe that with the ESL seemingly now defunt the Government will not want to become involved.
The only chance is a new independent regulatory body which sits above The FA, EPL and EFL,

But with the speed things like this take, don't expect change anytime soon.

Extraordinary cynicism. Are you suggesting red wall votes might be lost if the government were seen to do nothing?

 

[blue-shifted]

Forza Italia did a poll of fans of the 12 clubs to gauge receptivity to this league.

Interestingly, the Italian and Spanish clubs were more likely to have fans who were receptive to the idea. Amongst the English clubs, between 85-95% of the fans were against the idea, club by club.

Just one club - Juventus - showed a majority of fans in support of the idea (52%).

I'm left asking why, and the only conclusion I can reach is that fans of Real, Barca, Juve and the Milan clubs (I'll leave Atletico out of this at this stage) feel that their domestic leagues are broken. The chickens are coming home to roost. La Liga, with a few exceptions, is a two horse race every season. Perez is right - it's boring. But it is boring because they have stolen all the revenue from the other clubs.

Perez's answer is to go in search of fresh meat to feed on. He is not prepared to hand any of Real's cash back to other La Liga clubs, so the only answer is a new global league. Sadly, out teams would have just been fodder in that league. Real would have ended up buying their way to success in that league too.

It is interesting to note that the shadowy figures behind the ESL have not gone away. They have said that the project continues and they will keep probing and pushing. They will invest in a massive lobbying campaign now, influencing government ministers, pundits, media. Expect a few 'balanced' articles in The Sun, followed by a few players saying how it would have been great to play the best players in the world. Then we'll have a manager or two complaining about the quality of opposition in certain competitions. Shadowy stuff all done to undermine our leagues.

The answer when fighting money is to regulate hard and to put in place articles which no club can break. It's why the German model is so successful. No club will join, because they can't.

Our clubs - across the country - are cultural crown jewels. They need to be treated with the same reverence as listed buildings and protected for the good of their local communities and not put at risk for the sake of a global fanbase.

You're right of course.

They must be called out and exposed for what they are doing

 

[Hamilton]

The European Super League took us all by surprise, and yet it must have been many months in the making.

It is surprising then that the PR team appointed to handle media enquiries in the UK was run by INHouse Communications which is chaired by Kate Perrior.

Until recently, Kate Perrior was a Communications Director at 10 Downing Street for Theresa May and before that was advisor to Boris Johnson. In fact, Boris is very chummy with Kate and has a testimonial on the INHouse website that says without them, he would never have been Mayor of London. They go back some way.

It's pretty extraordinary therefore that Boris knew nothing about such a seismic shift in the football landscape when some of his own were so close to this. Who knows, maybe Boris had an inkling but pretty quickly chose a side that he thought would win.

 

[Randy McNob]

Not really, they just know what works which is why their productivity is higher than ours.

democratic socialism

don't forget Jeremy Corbyn's motto which was widely ridiculed and rejected - for the many not the few, well, it can certainly be applied here, football clubs are for the many - the fans and the communites they serve, not the few greedy wealthy owners. But we are all told the will of the people and the silent majority don't buy into that....

 

[Wozza]

Easy to have 2 types of shares, one with voting rights and one with dividend/asset ownership rights. Just means that any decision which goes to the board, must have fan approval to pass. Doesn't need to involve the transfer of any assets, income or monies.

But what billionaire owner is going to give over control like that?!

And could/would voting rights be restricted to fans in England/Britain only? If fans around the world ran Man Utd, they would have approved of joining the European Super League!

 

[Lower West Stander]

Forza Italia did a poll of fans of the 12 clubs to gauge receptivity to this league.

Interestingly, the Italian and Spanish clubs were more likely to have fans who were receptive to the idea. Amongst the English clubs, between 85-95% of the fans were against the idea, club by club.

Just one club - Juventus - showed a majority of fans in support of the idea (52%).

I'm left asking why, and the only conclusion I can reach is that fans of Real, Barca, Juve and the Milan clubs (I'll leave Atletico out of this at this stage) feel that their domestic leagues are broken. The chickens are coming home to roost. La Liga, with a few exceptions, is a two horse race every season. Perez is right - it's boring. But it is boring because they have stolen all the revenue from the other clubs.

Perez's answer is to go in search of fresh meat to feed on. He is not prepared to hand any of Real's cash back to other La Liga clubs, so the only answer is a new global league. Sadly, out teams would have just been fodder in that league. Real would have ended up buying their way to success in that league too.

It is interesting to note that the shadowy figures behind the ESL have not gone away. They have said that the project continues and they will keep probing and pushing. They will invest in a massive lobbying campaign now, influencing government ministers, pundits, media. Expect a few 'balanced' articles in The Sun, followed by a few players saying how it would have been great to play the best players in the world. Then we'll have a manager or two complaining about the quality of opposition in certain competitions. Shadowy stuff all done to undermine our leagues.

The answer when fighting money is to regulate hard and to put in place articles which no club can break. It's why the German model is so successful. No club will join, because they can't.

Our clubs - across the country - are cultural crown jewels. They need to be treated with the same reverence as listed buildings and protected for the good of their local communities and not put at risk for the sake of a global fanbase.

I agree on Perez.

Its boring in Spain because he made it so. Dodgy deals with the Spanish Government over the training ground and adopting bully boy tactics with the smaller clubs to make sure Real Madrid remain a national champion for the country.

He's a dangerous guy and it serves him right.

 

[Blazing Apostle]

just get rid of VAR and the cricket 100 and my life will be complete.......

 

[Publius Ovidius]

I know this is not a palatable thing to say, BUT, we as fans must also take some blame in this fiasco.

We as fans, and here at Brighton we are also guilty, want the best players to get us to a point where we are playing against the best players and teams possible. The only way that happens is by spending money. On here, we want a striker or two of pedigree to put the final pieces in the jigsaw..( we all know we are a very good team who struggle to convert our chances) those players , unless you are very lucky , cost money. Players in the top division are expensive from wages to transfer fees. You get a gem like lamptey every now and again, BUT we rely on Tony Bloom to keep us going. Manu rely on the Americans, city rely on the Qataris, Spurs rely on Levy. This is the game now and John Barnes is right

We need to remember. Football is played by a team, a football club is a business. However we may hark back to flat caps and goalposts for jumpers, it is NOT the working mans game anymore....it is the billionaires game and we as fans in the name of seeing our club progress have bought into it! I am not saying it is wrong, I am saying that is how it now is!

ESL was a challenge to UEFA and the PL...corrupt power mad organisations, and yet fans are saying we all won...no we didn’t. We stopped a challenge to EUFA and world football ( remember platini, blatter QATAR, Russia) but the problem still exists.

This will run and run.

There are fans on social media now twisting this saying their club were forced into it.

:MANU supporters club in China has 235million members. More than the entire population of most of Europe.

These people don’t care about us and we suck it all up. Their markets now are Africa,Asia, America..not Europe!

John Barnes was 100% right.

Rant over.

 

[clapham_gull]

Extraordinary cynicism.

Well, it's non unusual of Boris to jump on populist causes, especially as the party effectively split the country down the middle a few years ago.

Suggesting so isn't cynical, it's simply an observation of his political style and strategy.

He saw the opportunity and jumped on it.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

Conclusions?.......they'll be back

 

[KZNSeagull]

Other than insuring clubs are in the 'correct' hands re owners, the conclusion I draw is that football is awash with money at the top end and if it were not for owners paying ludicrous transfer fees and salaries to players, clubs would be making money hand over fist. If these big 6 clubs cannot control themselves, it is time for a transfer fee and salary cap.

 

[blue-shifted]

I know this is not a palatable thing to say, BUT, we as fans must also take some blame in this fiasco.

We as fans, and here at Brighton we are also guilty, want the best players to get us to a point where we are playing against the best players and teams possible. The only way that happens is by spending money. On here, we want a striker or two of pedigree to put the final pieces in the jigsaw..( we all know we are a very good team who struggle to convert our chances) those players , unless you are very lucky , cost money. Players in the top division are expensive from wages to transfer fees. You get a gem like lamptey every now and again, BUT we rely on Tony Bloom to keep us going. Manu rely on the Americans, city rely on the Qataris, Spurs rely on Levy. This is the game now and John Barnes is right

We need to remember. Football is played by a team, a football club is a business. However we may hark back to flat caps and goalposts for jumpers, it is NOT the working mans game anymore....it is the billionaires game and we as fans in the name of seeing our club progress have bought into it! I am not saying it is wrong, I am saying that is how it now is!

ESL was a challenge to UEFA and the PL...corrupt power mad organisations, and yet fans are saying we all won...no we didn’t. We stopped a challenge to EUFA and world football ( remember platini, blatter QATAR, Russia) but the problem still exists.

This will run and run.

There are fans on social media now twisting this saying their club were forced into it.

:MANU supporters club in China has 235million members. More than the entire population of most of Europe.

These people don’t care about us and we suck it all up. Their markets now are Africa,Asia, America..not Europe!

John Barnes was 100% right.

Rant over.

Totally agree.

I'll certainly think twice before DEMANDING we buy a new striker this summer

 

[blue-shifted]

Well, it's non unusual of Boris to jump on populist causes, especially as the party effectively split the country down the middle a few years ago.

Suggesting so isn't cynical, it's simply an observation of his political style and strategy.

He saw the opportunity and jumped on it.

Well I for one think he's a man of utmost probity, principle and integrity

 

[beorhthelm]

democratic socialism

don't forget Jeremy Corbyn's motto which was widely ridiculed and rejected - for the many not the few, well, it can certainly be applied here, football clubs are for the many - the fans and the communites they serve, not the few greedy wealthy owners. But we are all told the will of the people and the silent majority don't buy into that....

except their factories, companies and indeed football clubs are privately owned. Wolfsburg owned by VW, Liebzig by Redball, Bayer L by Bayer (the pharmacy people), Bayer M by Adidas and Allianz and a PLC... probably not quite the model you have in mind of socialism or football ownership.

 

[Comrade Sam]

I had a vision of all the bankers, executives, billionaires and sheikhs having their meeting. Each weighing up the pros and cons of the plan and not one of them seeing any problems whatsoever. Meanwhile the tea lady shuffled around the room thinking 'what an awful idea, they'll never sell that to the public!'. They were too detached and arrogant to ask a single genuine football fan. Then Boris thought 'bloody marvelous, a group of rich self interested, bloated pigs trying to stuff their faces in the trough - what a perfect distraction I can claim to give a toss about!'

 

[clapham_gull]

Well I for one think he's a man of utmost probity, principle and integrity

Having observed his behaviour as London Mayor (and paid for it) - I'd have to disagree.

 

[sydney]

conclusion is that the megamillionare dollarjunkie butt plug ****heads are trying to take our game away , the backlash has been unanimous and universal with the exception of a few clubs who are so far in debt , of their own doing and despite government bail outs (RM) ....**** 'em , this is our game , it's about the only thing we've got left so piss off back to your ice hockey and your rodeos' and come back when you have a serious offer that compensates the grass roots of the game that you are trying to steal......*****..!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I know this is not a palatable thing to say, BUT, we as fans must also take some blame in this fiasco.

We as CUSTOMERS , and here at Brighton we are also guilty, want the best players to get us to a point where we are playing against the best players and teams possible. The only way that happens is by spending money. On here, we want a striker or two of pedigree to put the final pieces in the jigsaw..( we all know we are a very good team who struggle to convert our chances) those players , unless you are very lucky , cost money. Players in the top division are expensive from wages to transfer fees. You get a gem like lamptey every now and again, BUT we rely on Tony Bloom to keep us going. Manu rely on the Americans, city rely on the Qataris, Spurs rely on Levy. This is the game now and John Barnes is right

We need to remember. Football is played by a team, a football club is a business. However we may hark back to flat caps and goalposts for jumpers, it is NOT the working mans game anymore....it is the billionaires game and we as fans in the name of seeing our club progress have bought into it! I am not saying it is wrong, I am saying that is how it now is!

ESL was a challenge to UEFA and the PL...corrupt power mad organisations, and yet fans are saying we all won...no we didn’t. We stopped a challenge to EUFA and world football ( remember platini, blatter QATAR, Russia) but the problem still exists.

This will run and run.

There are fans on social media now twisting this saying their club were forced into it.

:MANU supporters club in China has 235million members. More than the entire population of most of Europe.

These people don’t care about us and we suck it all up. Their markets now are Africa,Asia, America..not Europe!

John Barnes was 100% right.

Rant over.

Corrected for you.

 

[Questions]

Forza Italia did a poll of fans of the 12 clubs to gauge receptivity to this league.

Interestingly, the Italian and Spanish clubs were more likely to have fans who were receptive to the idea. Amongst the English clubs, between 85-95% of the fans were against the idea, club by club.

Just one club - Juventus - showed a majority of fans in support of the idea (52%).

I'm left asking why, and the only conclusion I can reach is that fans of Real, Barca, Juve and the Milan clubs (I'll leave Atletico out of this at this stage) feel that their domestic leagues are broken. The chickens are coming home to roost. La Liga, with a few exceptions, is a two horse race every season. Perez is right - it's boring. But it is boring because they have stolen all the revenue from the other clubs.

Perez's answer is to go in search of fresh meat to feed on. He is not prepared to hand any of Real's cash back to other La Liga clubs, so the only answer is a new global league. Sadly, out teams would have just been fodder in that league. Real would have ended up buying their way to success in that league too.

It is interesting to note that the shadowy figures behind the ESL have not gone away. They have said that the project continues and they will keep probing and pushing. They will invest in a massive lobbying campaign now, influencing government ministers, pundits, media. Expect a few 'balanced' articles in The Sun, followed by a few players saying how it would have been great to play the best players in the world. Then we'll have a manager or two complaining about the quality of opposition in certain competitions. Shadowy stuff all done to undermine our leagues.

The answer when fighting money is to regulate hard and to put in place articles which no club can break. It's why the German model is so successful. No club will join, because they can't.

Our clubs - across the country - are cultural crown jewels. They need to be treated with the same reverence as listed buildings and protected for the good of their local communities and not put at risk for the sake of a global fanbase.

It’s a good post although it raises the issue of how Barcelona or as an even better example - Real Madrid - are allowed to operate although they are totally financed by banks and a billion in debt to them.... maybe I need to check FFP in Europe