Cityclean Industrial Action

[Machiavelli]

Just out of interest, would you be happy taking a pay cut just because some idiotic ruling made your job equal with somebody elses totally unrelated and unsimilar job ?

If those two different rates of pay reflected accumulated sexism -- ie patriarchy -- then it might soften the blow. Presumably you're not advocating that female workers' wages should be set at the same level as the (predominantly) male bin workers, are you? Because that would involve paying higher council tax, something I suspect you'd be against.

ps the vast majority of workers have been suffering real terms losses of pay for over a decade now; it's been going on in the US since the 1980s: that's neoliberalism for you.

 

[Gary Leeds]

don't know what the bin men are like in Brighton but if they are anything like the ones in Leeds then god help you.

My bin is quite often to be found 4 or 5 houses away from where I left it. There have been times they have not emptied it because it was a little bit heavy (yet I got it out of my garden, down 4 steps with no problem). A couple of years ago they had a 4 week strike, except they only were on strike 1 day a week and every week it was the same day, so 80% of the city didn't even know there was a strike on but 20% got left without a collection for a month. When I pointed out to the union leader that by varying the strike they might actually get more support from the residents as more would be aware of the action rather than just leaving a small percentage having to arrange their own alternatives I got a load of abuse back from him (I did point out that they were asking for something like a 7.5% pay rise at the point where most jobs were frozen or getting at most 2% increases). Got a black bag next to your bin because its full? Tough, we don't take rubbish thats not in the bins.

Go back 25 years and a bin mans job was a hell of a lot harder, they actually had to pick bins up and tip them into the lorry and then would actually put them back in your garden where they found it. You would even see the driver get out and empty a few bins. Now you hardly even see them get their hi-viz jackets dirty

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If those two different rates of pay reflected accumulated sexism -- ie patriarchy -- then it might soften the blow. Presumably you're not advocating that female workers' wages should be set at the same level as the (predominantly) male bin workers, are you? Because that would involve paying higher council tax, something I suspect you'd be against.

No, I'm suggesting that a male bin person be paid the same as a female bin person and likewise for female and male TAs. I know the legislation suggests 'like' roles should be paid the same but it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that these two roles are similar. So bin people are predominatley male and TAs tend to be female - people need to get over it. I hire both Cisco and Microsoft engineers - they get paid different rates but not based on their gender, purely what I can get away with in the negociation. All my engineers get paid different salaries even if they are doing the same job.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

I might not know the precise detail of what a TA does but you don't need to know to be able to tell a TA role is in no way similar to a binmans role. I doubt very much that a binman spends a huge amount of time on his round assisting children with learning. Likewise I doubt a TA spends much time during the working day emptying wheelie bins into the back of a dustcart. Unless of course you want to suggest otherwise ?

interesting comments.

 

[Machiavelli]

No, I'm suggesting that a male bin person be paid the same as a female bin person and likewise for female and male TAs. I know the legislation suggests 'like' roles should be paid the same but it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that these two roles are similar. So bin people are predominatley male and TAs tend to be female - people need to get over it. I hire both Cisco and Microsoft engineers - they get paid different rates but not based on their gender, purely what I can get away with in the negociation. All my engineers get paid different salaries even if they are doing the same job.

I'd rather that pay rates were far more standardised. When they were, working people managed to get a larger share. The two things are connected.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

If TAs are on the same pay as binmen surely they should be seconded to work on the bin rounds when industrial action takes place ?

 

[Easy 10]

Loving the just a binman! You try driving a bin waggon round Brighton see how unskilled it is. Prehaps try the massive amounts of fitness it takes to be on a bin route the distance the blokes walk is massive for a start.

Hardly brain surgery though is it.
And "massive amounts of fitness" ? No more than your average postie I'd venture. All the hard work is done by the hydraulics.

 

[cardboard]

"Originally Posted by Camicus



Loving the just a binman! You try driving a bin waggon round Brighton see how unskilled it is. Prehaps try the massive amounts of fitness it takes to be on a bin route the distance the blokes walk is massive for a start."



The strike is with the drivers. They need ZERO level of fitness to drive a lorry down a street stopping every 10 yards so the wheelie bins can be hooked onto the back of the lorry and a button pressed.
Loads of jobs are broadbanded now.
Their union agreed to these changes and are now reneging on the deal because they think 6 street cleaners are not worthy to lace a lorry drivers boots. Joke

 

[Publius Ovidius]

If TAs are on the same pay as binmen surely they should be seconded to work on the bin rounds when industrial action takes place ?

I did suggest that.......then I woke up in casualty!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Hmmmmm. Equal pay legislation and liabilities meant this had to be dealt with (see link above). Previous Tory and Labour led council's didn't go near it. To give them some credit the Greens dealt with it and reduced / removed these liabilities. They are now trying to maintain this position. There appears to be little if any disagreement from the political opposition apart from a few cheap pre local election jibes. No argument on the recycling rates tho!

It's national legislation!!!!

Google "Bin strike". Just that. No town. All the top links that come back will refer to Brighton. I can only find recent other strikes in Doncaster (2012) and Leeds as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. If the Greens have done such a good job with the legislation why is t OUR bin men are the only strikers. Particularly nefarious Union leader (who many of the unwhipped Marxists in the Greens would support)? Or the whiff of weak and flip-flopping leadership? Or, perhaps, too much equality.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

What annoys me is that I have now asked for nets four times over the past year & they've never sent me one. All my previous nets went missing when the bin men collected my recycling - I assume they emptied the nets in their bin. Slightly windy night means there's paper and plastic spread across the road.

How hard is it to send some nets?

 

[Postman Pat]

When I worked at L&G a while ago they carried out a similar exercise, our job description got assessed and each element was given a score, then a total was calculated and assessed against jobs in the local area that had the same score, the view being it takes all the emotion out of it. I believe we came out the same as a pig farmer (among other jobs) so should have been paid on a similar scale within the same area.

I believe that the drivers are saying they are actually managers as they manage a team of collectors, and this wasn't added to their score. Personally I'm not sure how much management is needed on a bin round?

 

[jackanada]

When I worked at L&G a while ago they carried out a similar exercise, our job description got assessed and each element was given a score, then a total was calculated and assessed against jobs in the local area that had the same score, the view being it takes all the emotion out of it. I believe we came out the same as a pig farmer (among other jobs) so should have been paid on a similar scale within the same area.

I believe that the drivers are saying they are actually managers as they manage a team of collectors, and this wasn't added to their score. Personally I'm not sure how much management is needed on a bin round?

I remember a similar exercise at L&G. There was also a final step in the process where after all the surveying, comparisons and recommendations were complete they went to senior management to change everything to less than the going rate.

The dispute of the drivers is that inadequate consideration has been given to their holding of an HGV licence, which is in fairness a far greater investment of time and money than anything a TA has to undertake.

The bins in Brighton seem to balls up whoever the council.

 

[Worthing exile]

Nobody has ever said that a bin mans job is the same as a TA.

Each job was independantly assessed and points score /salary given to it. They just happened to come out with the same result probably along with several other jobs across the Authority.

Mark Turner (GMB) always reminds me of the classic 1970s Union Rep portrayed in Carry on at your convenience.

Want a decent refuse collection service? move to Adur-Worthing. Faultless. Separate wheelie bins for rubbish and recycling (which is all thrown in together-not several boxes). Also you can have your garden waste collected in a wheelie bin as well for an extra charge.

 

[Tarpon]

It's national legislation!!!!

Google "Bin strike". Just that. No town. All the top links that come back will refer to Brighton. I can only find recent other strikes in Doncaster (2012) and Leeds as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. If the Greens have done such a good job with the legislation why is t OUR bin men are the only strikers. Particularly nefarious Union leader (who many of the unwhipped Marxists in the Greens would support)? Or the whiff of weak and flip-flopping leadership? Or, perhaps, too much equality.

Alternatively google equal pay council liabilities (since the legislation is not exclusive to refuse workers) to see the messes elsewhere (e.g. birmingham) and perhaps recognise that it took the Greens to do what was actually required in Brighton.

Refuse workers in Brighton have gone on strike over all sorts of issues under all administrations it just happens to be driver pay this time. Next year it will be something else. The irony in this case is that the administration (so far) is holding the line rather than giving in like previous administrations have done (thereby creating the very liabilities in the first place) and is paying the price for previous weakness...and I'm not a particular fan of theirs either.

 

[Tarpon]

Mark Turner (GMB) always reminds me of the classic 1970s Union Rep portrayed in Carry on at your convenience.

Or Fred Kite from 'I'm alright Jack': 'We do not and cannot accept the principle that incompetence justifies dismissal. That is victimisation.'

 

[Screaming J]

Alternatively google equal pay council liabilities (since the legislation is not exclusive to refuse workers) to see the messes elsewhere (e.g. birmingham) and perhaps recognise that it took the Greens to do what was actually required in Brighton.

Refuse workers in Brighton have gone on strike over all sorts of issues under all administrations it just happens to be driver pay this time. Next year it will be something else. The irony in this case is that the administration (so far) is holding the line rather than giving in like previous administrations have done (thereby creating the very liabilities in the first place) and is paying the price for previous weakness...and I'm not a particular fan of theirs either.

This. This is a legacy of the inaction on this issue by previous administrations in Brighton. Many councils in the country had similar industrial strife but got it all sorted about 5 years ago.

 

[Surf's Up]

The unions have been using the equal pay legislation to crank up wages and salaries since its inception. Job evaluation is an inexact practice but is used to underpin equal value pay claims. The problem is that no sooner does one group settle a claim, along comes another group citing precedent. Those goes on until it goes full circle at which point the original group suddenly realise all their pre-existing pay differentials have been eroded so they slam in another claim. And so it goes on. Suffice to say the unions love it.

 

[jackanada]

Wheelie bins are not an option in many areas of Brighton.

If unions are driving up wages through this "comparison circle" how come public sector wages haven't risen?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The unions have been using the equal pay legislation to crank up wages and salaries since its inception. Job evaluation is an inexact practice but is used to underpin equal value pay claims. The problem is that no sooner does one group settle a claim, along comes another group citing precedent. Those goes on until it goes full circle at which point the original group suddenly realise all their pre-existing pay differentials have been eroded so they slam in another claim. And so it goes on. Suffice to say the unions love it.

Really? This implies wages are increasing. I don't believe this.