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[Sussex] Brighton Main Line 2 to be built?



GT49er

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Feb 1, 2009
47,572
Gloucester
This really wouldn’t make much of a difference or cause any capacity increases.
Yes t would. It would reduce the pressure of traffic from Coastway West on the BML, and would, if routed sensibly via Dorking and Leatherhead would bypass the E. Croydon bottleneck.
 




jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,474
Yes t would. It would reduce the pressure of traffic from Coastway West on the BML, and would, if routed sensibly via Dorking and Leatherhead would bypass the E. Croydon bottleneck.
There is little to no demand for that route via Dorking and Leatherhead, avoiding the big market of Gatwick. It would also take significantly longer, with its own massive capacity issues, with 10 minute headways and having to share the routes with slow services and south western railway services.
 


GT49er

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Feb 1, 2009
47,572
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There is little to no demand for that route via Dorking and Leatherhead, avoiding the big market of Gatwick. It would also take significantly longer, with its own massive capacity issues, with 10 minute headways and having to share the routes with slow services and south western railway services.
There appears to be little or no demand because there are little or no trains! - not through ones anyway. And do you think that the Uckfield - Tunbridge Wells - Tonbridge route currently being mooted would be any quicker? I think not..............
 


GT49er

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Feb 1, 2009
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Most of the line from Oxted to Uckfield is single track, very high viaduct has speed limit, land from Uckfield to Lewes is privately owned. Not very straightforward. Route from Eridge to T Wells has been built on. Pie in the sky me thinks. Hope so. Uckfield is a nice little town, don't want it completely destroyed.
Somebody ought to tell the Spa Valley Railway then - they're still running trains from Tunbridge Wells to Eridge! Must be fun to have trains crashing through buildings - maybe that gives them an edge over other heritage railways..............
Be a bit of a pisser for them if Network Rail take their track back again for 90mph high speed electric trains though.
 


vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
28,074
Fantastic news if true. And will of course give BHA fans in Kent and the north east of Sussex direct access to Falmer.
This will be one for the grandchildren...I'll be long gone by the time it comes in 15 years late and costing 12 times the original cost estimate.
 




A1X

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Sep 1, 2017
19,141
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Somebody ought to tell the Spa Valley Railway then - they're still running trains from Tunbridge Wells to Eridge! Must be fun to have trains crashing through buildings - maybe that gives them an edge over other heritage railways..............
Be a bit of a pisser for them if Network Rail take their track back again for 90mph high speed electric trains though.
Technically it has been if you factor in the large diversion which prevents the Spa Valley serving the original Groombridge platform
 


GT49er

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Feb 1, 2009
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Technically it has been if you factor in the large diversion which prevents the Spa Valley serving the original Groombridge platform
Well that probably won't benefit the 90 m.p.h. trains negotiating the diversion, eh?!!
 
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A1X

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Sep 1, 2017
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Well that probably won't benefit the 90 m.p.h. trains negotiating the diversion, eh?!!
Nvm I’m sure the guys who’ve pushed it have definitely worked out how it’s all supposed to work. Definitely.
 


jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,474
There appears to be little or no demand because there are little or no trains! - not through ones anyway. And do you think that the Uckfield - Tunbridge Wells - Tonbridge route currently being mooted would be any quicker? I think not..............
The towns on that route have a tiny market compared to Croydon and Gatwick. I can’t see a big spike for Leatherhead/Dorking - Portsmouth/Southampton traffic. But it would be a huge loss in the Portsmouth/Southampton - Gatwick, the best plan for Croydon is to uncross the track and build a better junction which are in place, as well as quadrupling Brighton to Three Bridges, which won’t happen. All that a route via a hypothetical Angmering curve would provide is a diversion route, which is already provided by a simple reversal at Littlehampton. The Arun valley is already at capacity as when the diverted trains head that way they have increase journey times to Pompey and Southampton on the 1J and 1C services by splitting at Barnham. The capacity in plt 1,2 and 3 at Brighton js already stretched and terminating at Hove and Worthing would just further overcrowd services into Brighton from those locations.
 






GT49er

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Feb 1, 2009
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The towns on that route have a tiny market compared to Croydon and Gatwick. I can’t see a big spike for Leatherhead/Dorking - Portsmouth/Southampton traffic. But it would be a huge loss in the Portsmouth/Southampton - Gatwick, the best plan for Croydon is to uncross the track and build a better junction which are in place, as well as quadrupling Brighton to Three Bridges, which won’t happen. All that a route via a hypothetical Angmering curve would provide is a diversion route, which is already provided by a simple reversal at Littlehampton. The Arun valley is already at capacity as when the diverted trains head that way they have increase journey times to Pompey and Southampton on the 1J and 1C services by splitting at Barnham. The capacity in plt 1,2 and 3 at Brighton js already stretched and terminating at Hove and Worthing would just further overcrowd services into Brighton from those locations.
Pompey and Southampton have other (better and faster) alternatives. Traffic from the west of Brighton, however, is a different kettle of fish, if it relieves some of the pressure on the BML (which is the whole point, not increasing the footfall from Dorking and Leatherhead, which isn't the point).
Maybe it's a case for a smaller train provider to take on as a specialist service - good publicity and image, attract the custom.
Birmngam to London, for instance, is WCML and Virgin trains - or not necessarily. A much smaller provider, Chiltern, provides a service from Moor Street, Birmingham to Marylebone - takes a few minutes longer, but cheaper, cleaner, more leg-room than Virgin; it's doing fine!
Worthing and Hove to London - a few minutes longer, but less aggro....there's a potential market for you! ......and the cost of an east to north spur at Ford is pennies compared to re-opening Lewes to Uckfield!
 


maresfield seagull

Well-known member
May 23, 2006
2,279
As someone living in East Grinstead I'd be very pleased if this was the outcome.

The only way to the Amex via train at the moment is to get a train to East Croydon (approx 45 minutes in the wrong direction) then change and get a train to Brighton (another 45-60 minutes). Alternatively I can get a bus to Three Bridges (approx 30-45 minutes) then get a train to Brighton (another 30 minutes).

So I currently either drive all the way to Brighton and pay to park (total journey 45 minutes), or drive to Haywards Heath (20-25 minutes) and get the train from there (18-30 minutes).

If I want to enjoy a few beers I have to add £50-60 to match day cost for taxis to and from HH.
Or Train EG to Oxted down the misery line to Uckfield then a 29 Bus to Lewes /Falmer
 


jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,474
Pompey and Southampton have other (better and faster) alternatives. Traffic from the west of Brighton, however, is a different kettle of fish, if it relieves some of the pressure on the BML (which is the whole point, not increasing the footfall from Dorking and Leatherhead, which isn't the point).
Maybe it's a case for a smaller train provider to take on as a specialist service - good publicity and image, attract the custom.
Birmngam to London, for instance, is WCML and Virgin trains - or not necessarily. A much smaller provider, Chiltern, provides a service from Moor Street, Birmingham to Marylebone - takes a few minutes longer, but cheaper, cleaner, more leg-room than Virgin; it's doing fine!
Worthing and Hove to London - a few minutes longer, but less aggro....there's a potential market for you! ......and the cost of an east to north spur at Ford is pennies compared to re-opening Lewes to Uckfield!
It’s not a few minutes, it’s an hour longer to go via Angmering. Chiltern Railways is completely different kettle of fish. Very few people use the service into Victoria, the main market of the southern service is Gatwick, running it through Dorking (which line would need a HUGE upgrade) would eliminate that. It would just be a train carrying fresh air about, while less through services operate on the BML, and the bottlenecks would still remain and possibly new bottlenecks in the Sutton and Epsom areas. If we had a new open access operator doing London - Brighton that would mean that there would be 3 operators running that market, 4 in some cases, for a relatively small market.
 




GT49er

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Feb 1, 2009
47,572
Gloucester
It’s not a few minutes, it’s an hour longer to go via Angmering.
Of course it is .....NOW! Reversing a train alone adds a disproportionate amount to the journey time. Going into Littlehampton and reversing out? Add 20 minutes minimum! Probably more like 30.
Trains going up the Arun Valley line now (AFAIK) all scuttle across to Three Bridges to add to the chaos at E. Croydon. Yes. some trains are needed to pick up from Crawley - as the services from Littlehampton and Bognor do now. I'm talking about reducing the pressure on the BML from traffic on Coastway West.
And wherever you go, and whatever you do, you are likely to need a signalling upgrade, so that is not an argument for one improvement scheme over another.
 


jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,474
Of course it is .....NOW! Reversing a train alone adds a disproportionate amount to the journey time. Going into Littlehampton and reversing out? Add 20 minutes minimum! Probably more like 30.
Trains going up the Arun Valley line now (AFAIK) all scuttle across to Three Bridges to add to the chaos at E. Croydon. Yes. some trains are needed to pick up from Crawley - as the services from Littlehampton and Bognor do now. I'm talking about reducing the pressure on the BML from traffic on Coastway West.
And wherever you go, and whatever you do, you are likely to need a signalling upgrade, so that is not an argument for one improvement scheme over another.
The reversal adds 12 minutes, it would still be well over an hour extra, plus it would need to fit into the pathing of existing services which is why it takes so long. You could reinstate the passing loop at Cheam but that probably wouldn’t solve the issue of having the follow Thameslink services down the Mitcham corridor, and metro services through Balham. The Portsmouth and Southampton services used to use this route until the early 80s, some even going to Waterloo instead, but it was switched to Gatwick as it served more people. I don’t think it would reduce pressure on coastway west, because the demand would still be heavily centred on quicker services on the BML. The best plan is to invest in the Windmill Bridge Junction redevelopment plan as that untangles Croydon and eliminates the conflicting moves that take place in the area. Building an Angmering curve or BML2 via Uckfield just means a lot more infrastructure has to be upgraded to serve very little purpose, where as Windmill Bridge remodelling serves a huge amount of different areas. Aspirationally it would be good as an alternative for diversions, but regular service not as much. Plus on diversion the train has to serve Littlehampton to cover the 1H service group.
 


GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
47,572
Gloucester
The reversal adds 12 minutes, it would still be well over an hour extra, plus it would need to fit into the pathing of existing services which is why it takes so long. You could reinstate the passing loop at Cheam but that probably wouldn’t solve the issue of having the follow Thameslink services down the Mitcham corridor, and metro services through Balham. The Portsmouth and Southampton services used to use this route until the early 80s, some even going to Waterloo instead, but it was switched to Gatwick as it served more people. I don’t think it would reduce pressure on coastway west, because the demand would still be heavily centred on quicker services on the BML. The best plan is to invest in the Windmill Bridge Junction redevelopment plan as that untangles Croydon and eliminates the conflicting moves that take place in the area. Building an Angmering curve or BML2 via Uckfield just means a lot more infrastructure has to be upgraded to serve very little purpose, where as Windmill Bridge remodelling serves a huge amount of different areas. Aspirationally it would be good as an alternative for diversions, but regular service not as much. Plus on diversion the train has to serve Littlehampton to cover the 1H service group.
Nice to have an argument - sorry, debate - with somebody who also knows a fair bit what he's talking about too! Probably more appropriate if debated in a decent pub over a pint or three - a bit too elaborate for a to-and-fro on NSC, I think.
At the end of the day anyway, they probably won't manage to do any of it! Cheers feller - all the best.
 








jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,474
Nice to have an argument - sorry, debate - with somebody who also knows a fair bit what he's talking about too! Probably more appropriate if debated in a decent pub over a pint or three - a bit too elaborate for a to-and-fro on NSC, I think.
At the end of the day anyway, they probably won't manage to do any of it! Cheers feller - all the best.
Yeah no worries, I understand the sentiment, but I think a lot of politicians in the area do trot out the old BML2 argument, but it doesn’t really have too much to do with solving the problems. The big issue that needs to be solved is stock and driver numbers, but that needs investment which sadly isn’t going to come anytime soon.
 


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