Boxing or UFC?

[Fatboy Quim]

He's a former NCAA wrestling champion as well as having held a fair few other amateur wrestling titles, so I suspect he probably could.

His wrestling ability is one thing people can't question. I think pretty much everything else is up for debate though.

I must add that I am completely biased as I simply hate everything about the man and cannot wait to see him squeel once Mr Emilianenko puts him in an armbar!

 

[folkestonesgull]

I went to uni with a cage fighter...not sure if this is the same thing

BBC - Essex - People - Cage fighting man

 

[HG201]

What does NSC prefer?

Football

 

[Fatboy Quim]

I went to uni with a cage fighter...not sure if this is the same thing

BBC - Essex - People - Cage fighting man

Yep. MMA it's exactly the same thing.

I always think "Cage Fighter" is far too brutal a term to use and presents the wrong image of the sport, especially as the origins of MMA and many of the Organisations other than the UFC take place in a ring.

In saying that I do think that the cage is a more practical place for MMA as in a ring there are constant restarts and deliberate spoiling tactics

 

[Nicky-Number-Nine]

UFC is shit. Boxing anyday for me

 

[METALMICKY]

Some very good points raised previously which really highlight how the UFC does need to be really careful how it develops and promotes itself. To suggest that any of the actual fighting is fake is absurd. Whilst acknowledging the need to maximise revenues, they must ensure that Sliva’s match making makes sense and that fights are logical and that fighters earn the right to the next fight. Over promotion or favouritism towards certain fighters regardless of their relative ability and current form must be avoided. Any hint of ‘overdone’ WWE style story lines must be avoided like the plague. I can accept the little trash talking hype between say Liddell/Ortiz & Hughes/Serra, Ortiz/Shamrock but the TUF reality series with Junie Browning just stunk of a set up.

I am of the view that the promotion of Brock Lesnar does indeed set a very dangerous precedent to be avoided in the future. I think there is no doubt he was picked up on the basis of the fact that he already had a fairly high profile. Yes, we know he can wrestle but then it seems the game plan was to try fast track and teach him the other skill components. Whether he’ll be proficient in any of the other disciplines might be a mute point because he may continue to dominate the heavyweight decision simply because of his size & strength. That’s not good for MMA as it negates the true skills and plays into the hands of the detractors particularly when they just see him just sitting on top of Frank Mir pummelling his face like a schoolyard fight. That’s just so not pure MMA and if you’ve witnessed the proper wrestling/ground & pound of people like Couture, Hughes and Ortiz its just plain ugly. His antics after the Mir win were also appalling and just so against the MMA principles of respect, honour and discipline. Let us hope that even the brash Dana White had a quiet word in his and Henderson’s ear after their antics on sat. Lets just pray that the deal is done with Fedor or even Barnett who I think both could handle Lesnar. As for Henderson, let us hope he gets a rematch with Anderson Silva and then when he’s in a rear naked choke I hope he taps but Silva ignores and then puts him to sleep. Then Silva can just say “sorry guys ref was bit slow and I was just making sure I shut him up proper”.

 

[Fatboy Quim]

Some very good points raised previously which really highlight how the UFC does need to be really careful how it develops and promotes itself. To suggest that any of the actual fighting is fake is absurd. Whilst acknowledging the need to maximise revenues, they must ensure that Sliva’s match making makes sense and that fights are logical and that fighters earn the right to the next fight. Over promotion or favouritism towards certain fighters regardless of their relative ability and current form must be avoided. Any hint of ‘overdone’ WWE style story lines must be avoided like the plague. I can accept the little trash talking hype between say Liddell/Ortiz & Hughes/Serra, Ortiz/Shamrock but the TUF reality series with Junie Browning just stunk of a set up.

I am of the view that the promotion of Brock Lesnar does indeed set a very dangerous precedent to be avoided in the future. I think there is no doubt he was picked up on the basis of the fact that he already had a fairly high profile. Yes, we know he can wrestle but then it seems the game plan was to try fast track and teach him the other skill components. Whether he’ll be proficient in any of the other disciplines might be a mute point because he may continue to dominate the heavyweight decision simply because of his size & strength. That’s not good for MMA as it negates the true skills and plays into the hands of the detractors particularly when they just see him just sitting on top of Frank Mir pummelling his face like a schoolyard fight. That’s just so not pure MMA and if you’ve witnessed the proper wrestling/ground & pound of people like Couture, Hughes and Ortiz its just plain ugly. His antics after the Mir win were also appalling and just so against the MMA principles of respect, honour and discipline. Let us hope that even the brash Dana White had a quiet word in his and Henderson’s ear after their antics on sat. Lets just pray that the deal is done with Fedor or even Barnett who I think both could handle Lesnar. As for Henderson, let us hope he gets a rematch with Anderson Silva and then when he’s in a rear naked choke I hope he taps but Silva ignores and then puts him to sleep. Then Silva can just say “sorry guys ref was bit slow and I was just making sure I shut him up proper”.

Interesting read.

Dana White definitely had a word with both Lesnar and Henderson. Lesnar said White took him into a room and they had a "whip the dog session" (his words). Henderson said at the post-fight press conference that he was "joking" in his after fight interview - White responded by saying he was neither impressed nor amused.

I commend Dana White for this, which is unusual for me as I'm not a big fan of Dana White in general ( his payment to fighters and tyrannical control over their image rights is something I don't agree with) however, I do think that it cannot be said that he is in the business for the wrong reasons. He's a genuine fight fan.

Regarding Dan Henderson. I really think it was heat of the moment type thing, as from what I have seen of him -dating back to his UFC debut and many Pride fights (as well as TUF)- he seems to be a decent guy. As for A.Silva holding on to a rear naked choke after a tap out - this would be good for nobody.


TUF is an interesting concept for me. While it is undoubtedly a huge succes business-wise and the contestants do have genuine ability, it has also shown that some absolute muppets ( Junie Browning / DaMarcus Johnson / CB Dolloway) can make a career out of acting like prats. This season's TUF features the grotesquely over-hyped Kimbo Slice (knocked out by a jab from a guy on one foot) and a bunch of ex NFL players. This, I feel takes a lot away from the integrity of the sport.

As a positive though, how good was Wilks in his destruction of Johnson at the TUF finale - he has to be the best British prospect.

 

[the hitman]

Boxing is my life and i love it.

 

[METALMICKY]

Just to confirm, the Silva choke comment was just an off the cuff remark and as you say would do MMA no favours.

Very glad to hear that Dana White did have a word with Lesnar & Hendo. Dana White is really a mixed bag with some good and some very bad. There is no doubting that he has a real passion for the sport and all he does is with good intention. However, he must not develop into some MMA Don King like tyrant who only ends up alienating people. I've read articles that have suggested that his aggression and overuse of the Fxxk word have not endeared him to many people including broadcasters who could have really helped the UFC. That doesn't help the sport and particularly when there are issues getting shows sanctioned in New York.

Could not agree more on the comments about TUF and Kimbo Slice. I am really worried they could ruin a really good concept.Just maybe the show would be too dull if it was just all about a bunch of guys training, but if you are going to add personal interest and character, subtlety is the key. J. Browning then followed by his brother was very nearly a disaster.

Not sure about Wilks 'one of ours credentials' as i believe he has his own gym and has been in the US for 9 years. However, his TUF final victory was very impressive and with Bisping having to rebuild and Harding perhaps still a tad raw, it will be interesting to see his progression.

I feels the true future of MMA is fighters like Georges St Pierre and Anderson Silva. The skills and attititude of those type of fighters will attract new fans and dispell the poor perceptions of MMA and perhaps we can try to drop the horrible connotations of the term 'cage fighting'. It will also be very interesting to see which broadcaster will pick up in the long term the UK rights to the live shows and TUF etc. You really do not need to practice martial arts to gain an appreciation of MMA. Accordingly, the UFC in conjunction with a quality broadcaster ought to put out some 'Learn UFC' style shows which would help people appreciate the skills. Quality is the key and it must be better than Setanta. The events were OK but the Thurs night 'Ultimate Talk' was painfully amatuerish with the only saving grace being the excellent Gareth Davies from the Telegraph.

 

[Fatboy Quim]

Just to confirm, the Silva choke comment was just an off the cuff remark and as you say would do MMA no favours.

Very glad to hear that Dana White did have a word with Lesnar & Hendo. Dana White is really a mixed bag with some good and some very bad. There is no doubting that he has a real passion for the sport and all he does is with good intention. However, he must not develop into some MMA Don King like tyrant who only ends up alienating people. I've read articles that have suggested that his aggression and overuse of the Fxxk word have not endeared him to many people including broadcasters who could have really helped the UFC. That doesn't help the sport and particularly when there are issues getting shows sanctioned in New York.

Could not agree more on the comments about TUF and Kimbo Slice. I am really worried they could ruin a really good concept.Just maybe the show would be too dull if it was just all about a bunch of guys training, but if you are going to add personal interest and character, subtlety is the key. J. Browning then followed by his brother was very nearly a disaster.

Not sure about Wilks 'one of ours credentials' as i believe he has his own gym and has been in the US for 9 years. However, his TUF final victory was very impressive and with Bisping having to rebuild and Harding perhaps still a tad raw, it will be interesting to see his progression.

I feels the true future of MMA is fighters like Georges St Pierre and Anderson Silva. The skills and attititude of those type of fighters will attract new fans and dispell the poor perceptions of MMA and perhaps we can try to drop the horrible connotations of the term 'cage fighting'. It will also be very interesting to see which broadcaster will pick up in the long term the UK rights to the live shows and TUF etc. You really do not need to practice martial arts to gain an appreciation of MMA. Accordingly, the UFC in conjunction with a quality broadcaster ought to put out some 'Learn UFC' style shows which would help people appreciate the skills. Quality is the key and it must be better than Setanta. The events were OK but the Thurs night 'Ultimate Talk' was painfully amatuerish with the only saving grace being the excellent Gareth Davies from the Telegraph.

Again, completely agree with all of that (this is getting dangerously agreeable for NSC).

Definitely true about the evolution of the mixed martial artist as opposed to fighters originally from one discipline learning others along the way. Forest Griffin said recently that he is glad that he will be long gone in 5-10 years time as the sport will have completely changed in terms of pure athletes who have studied mixed martial arts as an individual discipline. We will probably all look back on the days of Brock Lesnar and laugh.

Gareth A Davies has shown a real commitment recently to getting good mma coverage to British fans. If you don't know already, his blog is fantastic and covers both MMA and boxing

Boxing and MMA - Telegraph Blogs

 

[Frutos]

His wrestling ability is one thing people can't question. I think pretty much everything else is up for debate though.

I must add that I am completely biased as I simply hate everything about the man and cannot wait to see him squeel once Mr Emilianenko puts him in an armbar!

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the bloke either and would love to watch Fedor take him apart, I just thought fair credit should be given to his wrestling skills, which Mr. Cade was not doing.

If you had to name one all time favourite boxer and MMA fighter (given your obvious knowledge of both), who would you pick?

For me it would be Julio Cesar Chavez and Randy Couture (one fighter I hate more than Lesnar is Tim Sylvia, so watching Couture beat him to get the Heavyweight Title back was brilliant).

 

[Fatboy Quim]

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the bloke either and would love to watch Fedor take him apart, I just thought fair credit should be given to his wrestling skills, which Mr. Cade was not doing.

If you had to name one all time favourite boxer and MMA fighter (given your obvious knowledge of both), who would you pick?

For me it would be Julio Cesar Chavez and Randy Couture (one fighter I hate more than Lesnar is Tim Sylvia, so watching Couture beat him to get the Heavyweight Title back was brilliant).

Tough question, and good picks from you.

Boxing: Is a tough one. My heart says Naz, he was the first to get me into the sport properly. I simply loved watching him. I had watched the Benn / Collins / Eubank / Watson era but nothing compared to my excitement before a Naz fight. An honourable mention to Calzaghe too, I think he has been criminally under rated by many and his achievements in the sport are up there with the very best.

MMA: I love watching Fedor. He is a phenom and his personality and nature just add to the mystery, and build up the anticipation every time he fights. I also love Wanderlei Silva, his fights in Pride against Rampage were fantastic.

So Naz and Fedor!

 

[Fatboy Quim]

As a follow up who are the fighters you have most enjoyed watching lose or most wanted to lose?

Apart from Brock Lesnar at the moment, I really dislike Diego Sanchez I'm always cheering for the other guy when he fights. It was good to see Kimbo Slice get beat too.

In terms of boxing, I've never really appreciated B-Hop and so Calzaghe's win was sweet . I also loved watching Mayorga get schooled by De La Hoya. If Margarito comes back (which I strongly believe he shouldn't be allowed to) I am going to love watching him get beaten - I know he lost to Mosely but this was before the illegal hand wraps were publicised and therefore watching it live I wasn't willing him to lose as much as I would be now

 

[Frutos]

As a follow up who are the fighters you have most enjoyed watching lose or most wanted to lose?

MMA-wise, and besides Lesnar and Sylvia as I've already mentioned, I don't like Kimbo so anyone fighting him will get my support.

As far as boxing, I have to say I always hoped Eubank would lose. He did a great job of creating a persona for himself as the fighter many loved to hate, and I was more than happy to participate in that. I just found him a smug (although talented, credit where it's due), twat.

Other than him, I've never liked Hopkins and I used to dislike De La Hoya (because he beat Chavez), although that's no longer the case. John Ruiz is another I've never liked, although that's because he's utterly interminably dull to watch (one of my worst nightmares would involve Ruiz converting to MMA and boring the entire audience to death by 'fighting' Tim Sylvia).

 

[METALMICKY]

Best Boxer- Sugar Ray Leonard- Pure poetry in motion and if he lacked something it was only a truly concussive punch

Best MMA- Randy Couture- Perhaps not a slick BJJ artist or Liddell like KO artist, but just an amazing wrestler with determination and resilience particularly for his age. Great advert for MMA in and out of the Octagon

MMA fighters you love to see lose:

BJ Penn - So much talent but very poor loser. And if only he trained harder he could become a legend

Josk Koschek- Total cock!

And it goes without saying i am praying that someone will put the 'beat down' on that musclebound oaf Lesnar.

Most likable MMA fighter- Forrest Griffin by a mile. Top fella with great attitide and charisma. Even my Mrs likes him and of course he was in the landmark TUF finale fight with Stephan Bonnar. On a word or caution and worried that Dana White has set him up for a fall with the fight against Andrerson Silva. Silva's last two fights were not impressive and showed a possible weakness where fighters are cagey and don't come on to him. The worry is that all we all know that Forest is seriously offensive. As discussed in previous posting this is where the UFC must not make match ups for thewrong reasons.

Anyone for fave submissions:

Matt Hughes standing rear naked choke on Frank Trigg

 

[Fatboy Quim]

Good call on Koscheck and BJ Penn - dislike them both.

My fav submission is definitely Ryo Chonan v Anderson Silva
YouTube - Ryo Chonan making Anderson Silva tapout

Honorary mentions to Akiyama's sub after getting pummelled by Manhoef for the best part of a round, and Fedor's perfect demolition of Tim Sylvia

YouTube - K-1 Hero's 7 Yoshihiro Akiyama sv Melvin Manhoef

YouTube - Affliction Banned- Fedor Emelianenko vs Tim Sylvia

How about Favourite knockouts?

I can't decide between Anderson Silva's spectacular back elbow or Wanderlei v Ramapage 2

YouTube - Anderson The Spider Silva Awesome Elbow KO

YouTube - wanderlei silva vs rampage jackson history of violence - (second fight)