[News] Boris and coal mining.

[Bry Nylon]

I think you rather missed the point there. Thatcher’s main aim was to destroy the communities - the coal mines closing was almost incidental.

There was an interesting series of documentaries on Thatcher last year. Ironically she had an admiration for the work ethic of the miners and the social cohesion of the mining communities. But that was trumped by two over-riding political motivations: a pragmatic decision to close uneconomic pits, regardless of the wider social implications, plus a more philosophical desire to destroy the power of the unions (especially the NUM) which she regarded as undemocratic and an existential threat to building the free market economy and smaller state she believed in.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There was an interesting series of documentaries on Thatcher last year. Ironically she had an admiration for the work ethic of the miners and the social cohesion of the mining communities. But that was trumped by two over-riding political motivations: a pragmatic decision to close uneconomic pits, regardless of the wider social implications, plus a more philosophical desire to destroy the power of the unions (especially the NUM) which she regarded as undemocratic and an existential threat to building the free market economy and smaller state she believed in.

Spot on.
As Data Point has rightly pointed out, more pits closed under Harold Wilson, than Margaret Thatcher.
It wasn’t what she did, but how she did it.

 

[jakarta]

There was an interesting series of documentaries on Thatcher last year. Ironically she had an admiration for the work ethic of the miners and the social cohesion of the mining communities. But that was trumped by two over-riding political motivations: a pragmatic decision to close uneconomic pits, regardless of the wider social implications, plus a more philosophical desire to destroy the power of the unions (especially the NUM) which she regarded as undemocratic and an existential threat to building the free market economy and smaller state she believed in.

And her stance was helped by that prick Scargill and also those that remembered NUM induced Power Cuts. Seems like ancient history now but I remember doing my School Homework by candlelight while my Dad wondered how he was going to pay his staff when his business couldn't run.

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

Spot on.
As Data Point has rightly pointed out, more pits closed under Harold Wilson, than Margaret Thatcher.
It wasn’t what she did, but how she did it.

Mrs Thatcher was always happy to have a stooge to do her dirty work, Sir Ian MacGregor with British Steel and the National Coal Board, and her patsy Eddie Shah to break the print unions. Mrs Thatcher didn't like the idea of closed shop unions, and did her utmost to destroy them, and damn the consequences.

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

And her stance was helped by that prick Scargill and also those that remembered NUM induced Power Cuts. Seems like ancient history now but I remember doing my School Homework by candlelight while my Dad wondered how he was going to pay his staff when his business couldn't run.

Agree, the hard-line union leaders like Scargill probably did almost as much in destroying the unions as Mrs Thatcher, clearly some had too much self interest in being hard-line!

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Spot on.
As Data Point has rightly pointed out, more pits closed under Harold Wilson, than Margaret Thatcher.
It wasn’t what she did, but how she did it.

Yes it was, Thatcher was a cold and callous woman and it killed those communities at the time but regarding Johnsons comments even Mr brown envelope himself, Jeffrey Archer was shaking his head in disbelief on Friday and could not understand why Johnson had said what he did especially because of the Tory MP's in those constituencies.
But I hope that the mining communities are not moaning too much because I thought that they would rather "cut their arm off than vote Tory"
Yet they did, albeit through the ignorant stupidity of Brexit, even Bolsover of all places went blue.
Most of them are little Englanders who just did not want foreigners in the country, they were warned but did it anyway.
I have no sympathy with them, fishermen or farmers.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I didn't miss the point - mines had been closing since the war. This is an extract from Wikipedia:

'Between 1947 and 1994, some 950 mines were closed by UK governments. Clement Attlee’s Labour government closed 101 pits between 1947 and 1951; Macmillan (Conservative) closed 246 pits between 1957 and 1963; Wilson (Labour) closed 253 in his two terms in office between 1964 and 1976; Heath (Conservative) closed 26 between 1970 and 1974; and Thatcher (Conservative) closed 115 between 1979 and 1990.'

Only Thatcher is demonised. Why would anyone (other than Hitler) aim to destroy a community?

As for me - I have the greatest respect and admiration possible for the extraordinary mining industry and their communities. It's almost impossible to imagine the hell and death and disease they and their families endured.

Britain owes them a huge debt for the status we now enjoy.

Thatcher was demonised because it was her intention to “break” the miners. All the other closures were probably more specifically for economic reasons - mines no longer viable.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Thatcher was demonised because it was her intention to “break” the miners. All the other closures were probably more specifically for economic reasons - mines no longer viable.

Depends what you mean by viable.
I think that it was the cost of mining the coal in the UK, but coal was still needed and still is, we ended up importing shit loads of the stuff from places like Poland, Australia still mines huge amounts and exports it. Countries like China and USA still mine huge amounts I believe.
The affect of coal on the planet is a relatively new thing I dont remember hearing anything about the affect of coal and the climate at the time, it was all about Unions who I concede did not help themselves (see also councils and council houses)
We could have continued to mine for many years and probably still could now to a certain extent, at least it would be another export market that we are desperate for post Brexit.
But as with Steel and many other things, our products are expensive due to various reasons.
The fact that we seem to want to lead the world on climate control and emmisions means that the mines would certainly be closed now.

 

[topbanana36]

Snowflakes tears again. Boris is a clown and a fake conservative , but both Wales and Scotland are devolved governments and have had a generation under Labour governments to regenerate the areas devastated by the closure of the mines. They have done sweet FA.

 

[beorhthelm]

Thatcher was demonised because it was her intention to “break” the miners. All the other closures were probably more specifically for economic reasons - mines no longer viable.

the mines closed were no longer economic and hadnt been for years, they'd been kept open through strike threats. the two factors are tied together.

a smarter union would have accepted closures to protect marginal mines, adopted working methods and machinery to make some economical, and made a case for strategic domestic production. instead they insisted on maintaining inefficient practice and chose to be a strategic threat.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Mrs Thatcher was always happy to have a stooge to do her dirty work, Sir Ian MacGregor with British Steel and the National Coal Board, and her patsy Eddie Shah to break the print unions. Mrs Thatcher didn't like the idea of closed shop unions, and did her utmost to destroy them, and damn the consequences.

In the 1970's there was a report in my local paper about a father of two who had been sacked from his job in the mill. Reason? The unions didn't want him there because he had worked in a non-union mill for a summer when he was 16. Twenty years earlier. That's the sort of power they had - to put a man out of work, to make his wife and children suffer as well, simply because they could. They had that power, and they abused that power.

 

[Baldseagull]

I have a suspicion that it was a joke. Obviously there is a certain type of person who goes round looking for jokes so they can take offence; this is a good chance.

If the coal mining life is so wonderful, why hasn't Nicola Sturgeon reintroduced it? There must be loads of coal underground in Scotland. Let those who want the life to return, apply for jobs digging it up.

A joke a bit like thanking the Luftwaffe for services to Town Planning, giving us the opportunity to remodel Coventry and Southampton. Not really a joke a Prime Minister should make.

 

[Baldseagull]

In the 1970's there was a report in my local paper about a father of two who had been sacked from his job in the mill. Reason? The unions didn't want him there because he had worked in a non-union mill for a summer when he was 16. Twenty years earlier. That's the sort of power they had - to put a man out of work, to make his wife and children suffer as well, simply because they could. They had that power, and they abused that power.

Yet Thatcher denied hundreds of thousands work in coal mines, and other industries.
Unions had some abuses of power, but they formed because of Industrialists abuses of power, Unions fought for and achieved most of the employment rights you and I enjoy today.
You might argue that Thatchers battle against the Unions was for the greater good, but the Unions would say the blacklisting of the guy you reference was for the greater good. It isn't a black and white issue.

 

[Baker lite]

Yet Thatcher denied hundreds of thousands work in coal mines, and other industries.
Unions had some abuses of power, but they formed because of Industrialists abuses of power, Unions fought for and achieved most of the employment rights you and I enjoy today.
You might argue that Thatchers battle against the Unions was for the greater good, but the Unions would say the blacklisting of the guy you reference was for the greater good. It isn't a black and white issue.

“ Hold my beer”


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[Baldseagull]

“ Hold my beer”


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Unemployment at 6% at it's worst under Wilson, 12% at it's worst under Thatcher, the highest rate in the last 80 years. She never got the unemployment rate below that which she inherited, that "Labour isn't working" poster was genius campaigning, but she made it worse.

 

[DataPoint]

Thatcher was demonised because it was her intention to “break the stranglehold” of the miners and other unions fanatical leaders. All the closures were specifically for economic reasons - mines no longer viable.

That's more like it!

 

[B-right-on]

Yet Thatcher denied hundreds of thousands work in coal mines, and other industries.
Unions had some abuses of power, but they formed because of Industrialists abuses of power, Unions fought for and achieved most of the employment rights you and I enjoy today.
You might argue that Thatchers battle against the Unions was for the greater good, but the Unions would say the blacklisting of the guy you reference was for the greater good. It isn't a black and white issue.

My opinion, it's like the H&S stuff nowadays, it started with a very good purpose and reason for existence and did a lot of good.

Then when the majority of the 'issues' were solved, they carried on to the point they lost the original purpose and ended up being their own worst enemy. Arthur Scargill comes to mind.

 

[The Clamp]

My opinion, it's like the H&S stuff nowadays, it started with a very good purpose and reason for existence and did a lot of good.

Then when the majority of the 'issues' were solved, they carried on to the point they lost the original purpose and ended up being their own worst enemy. Arthur Scargill comes to mind.

What sort of H&S do you think is over the top?

 

[jonnyrovers]

There are ways of doing things.

I grew up in a South Yorkshire mining town. My experiences as a child in the late 70s & early 80s have hugely informed the person I am now. I've had decades to reflect on it all but the contempt I have for the protagonists on both sides of the miners strikes lives strong in me. The very real pain and suffering my family and neighbours experienced was unnecessary and caused lasting damage. Terrible things happened in front of me and they happened because people in positions of responsibility and power chose those methods.
[MENTION=33848]The Clamp[/MENTION] is absolutely right, there are indeed ways of doing things.