Bolton Wanderers receive winding up petition

[wakeytom]

But unlike ticket/catering/merchandising revenues, parachute payments, TV money etc etc, the IncomeTax/NI/VAT never belongs to a business, it belongs to HMRC. If Bolton Wanderers, or any other business, defaults on their monthly/quarterly/annual returns to HMRC because the management is misappropriating the money then HMRC should come down on them immediately as seems to be the case here.

I fully agree with you and what is happening sounds like the right thing given funds are owed to the crown. All I was saying is that I would think its very common when a business fails for crown monies to be owed as the reality is that money will sit within your normal current account and be used for cashflow under normal circumstances until the merry-go-round stops as it has with Bolton and the money is not there for HMRC.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

Bolton Wanderers last reported annual loss: £9.1m
BHAFC last reported annual loss: £10.4m

Bolton Wanderers debt: £173m
BHAFC debt: £200m+

Bolton debt to Eddie Davies: £173m
BHAFC debt to Tony Bloom: £200m+

If Bloom stopped financially supporting the Albion tomorrow we would be losing £1m a month with no way of finding it other than cutting costs dramatically (and that's not easy with a squad of contracted football players) or getting promoted (also not easy).

The key difference is we have the ongoing support of Tony Bloom, and Bolton have lost the support of Eddie Davies.

I think you may be comparing the losses/debt reported by a football club (Bolton Wanderers) with a holding company.
The 2014/15 accounts for BHAFC Ltd (the football club entity and FL member) have yet to posted, looking back this usually happens at CH in late January/early Feb. As at end June 2014, BHAFC's annual loss was reported as £8.5M, debt £60.7M

 

[Mr Putdown]

I think you may be comparing the losses/debt reported by a football club (Bolton Wanderers) with a holding company.

A holding company like Burnden Leisure Plc?

 

[LlcoolJ]

Gartside pissed all Davies' money away on wages, transfer fees and fees to agents (who were generally his mates).

The vast majority of Bloom's money has been spent on assets.

There is a MASSIVE difference. Can you really see Bloom being taken for a ride the way Davies has?

Looking at the basic numbers and saying "oh we're the same as them then" doesn't work.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Has Davies totally run out of money ? Surely he'd at least see off the winding up order ?

Or is there an incoming parachute payment next month ?

 

[LlcoolJ]

Has Davies totally run out of money ? Surely he'd at least see off the winding up order ?

Or is there an incoming parachute payment next month ?

You've got to draw the line somewhere. Whenever he pulled the plug this was bound to happen.

For all the talk of a takeover, we've seen time and again that any potential investor is much more likely to wait for administration and a write down of the debts before doing anything.

 

[wakeytom]

Has Davies totally run out of money ? Surely he'd at least see off the winding up order ?

Or is there an incoming parachute payment next month ?

I am sure I read somewhere that his trust has gone to the lowest level he was prepared to go to although I cannot be certain on that

 

[LlcoolJ]

I read that he's down to £100m although I've no idea if that is true. If so then you can see why he's had enough although I'm still amazed he didn't pull the plug earlier. Or at least get rid of the leeches ages ago.

 

[perseus]

Who is thieving from the government? Bolton owe the HMRC money but I imagine at any given moment most businesses, including BHAFC, do.

The amount I've seen mentioned is not particularly significant in terms of a high-wage paying Championship football club - it can only be about a month's worth, give or take, assuming it to be PAYE monies.

Look, I'm not defending Bolton at all, but I do genuinely believe there are significant parallels between them and us, and that if Tony Bloom decided to stop supporting us tomorrow we'd not be in a particularly good place. We don't expect that to happen of course.

It does seem to be a cash flow problem.

When do the clubs actually receive the parachute payments? Before the season, during the season or at the end?

Bolton accounts look strange, £35 million reducing to something like £23 million (£11 million w/o parachute) the following season. I could not find their 2013-14 accounts.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

The time has come to leave all sentiment aside. What we're talking about here is CHEATING. Clubs like Bolton have been living beyond their means for too long now, employing players they can't afford and gaining an advantage on the field over clubs that do abide by the rules.

Financial Fair Play rules permit a certain amount of loss under certain rules, and if there is a chairman willing to fund that club and wear that loss then fine. But if you can't pay the tax/NI on the wages of the players you employ, or you can't pay the VAT that you've collected on the government's behalf on tickets and merchandise then that is not on and you deserve everything you get.

Tough on Bolton fans, they'll have to start again at the bottom but, like AFC Wimbledon, Newport and Rangers have shown, there IS hope. The guilty parties here are the board that have tragically mismanaged the finances of this great and historic club.

Apart from 1 season when we were at Withdean, this club has lost money every season going back to some time during Goldstone era.

Since moving into the Amex, we have lost £8.9 million, £14.7 million, £10.6 million and £10.4 million, giving a total loss of £44.6 million - that's before you look at our total debt figure

So it's fair to say that we are not living within our means, (if we were, we wouldn't have the Amex because the club couldn't have afforded to build it) and we could still end up in a similar position as Bolton face now should Bloom decided to copy the Bolton owner and refuse to fund any more losses - So, although we haven't reached the PL, you could say our league position is artifically higher than it should be and this was also very true during the Withdean years.

How many calls for a reduced squad, less spending or just a re-balancing of our books have you seen on NSC (or elsewhere) this season? or has it been the opposite where fans want cheaper tickets, cheaper food and drink, more spent on players, etc...- So if the worst does happen, do you think it's fair to say it's then our fans fault like you are doing with the Bolton fans

 

[perseus]

Has Davies totally run out of money ? Surely he'd at least see off the winding up order ?

Or is there an incoming parachute payment next month ?

Losses seem to match the last year of their parachute payments i.e. £12 million

 

[perseus]

Has Davies totally run out of money ? Surely he'd at least see off the winding up order ?

Or is there an incoming parachute payment next month ?

Losses seem to match the last year of their parachute payments i.e. £12 million

 

[Se20]

Lots of championship clubs could go the same way in the next few years.
Rich owners will chase the dream, but eventually the financial drain will prove too much, and common sense will prevail.
The money now on offer in the PL will make club owners more frantic to get a slice of the cake.

 

[crookie]

Lots of championship clubs could go the same way in the next few years.
Rich owners will chase the dream, but eventually the financial drain will prove too much, and common sense will prevail.
The money now on offer in the PL will make club owners more frantic to get a slice of the cake.

The problem in a nutshell with the massive gulf in TV revenues between the divisions. get promoted, even if its for one season, and you're sorted for the next 4 or 5 with that money plus parachute payments. Not a sustainable situation in the long term

 

[LlcoolJ]

Do my eyes deceive me? A sensible post by a Palace fan?! *falls off bar stool*

It's a good point but lots of clubs have managed to screw things up so comprehensively that even with the parachute payments it's all gone tits.

Like Bolton for instance.

 

[nicko31]

There are some interesting comments on here, the fact is we are living beyond our means which is fine as long as TB continues to support the club.

As for Bolton, I feel for their fans but it must be said they didn’t make hay while the sun shone and overspent big time with plenty of income handed to them on a plate

Hate to say it the 3rd re-incarnation of Palace is a good example of how to live within their means, it just their past that haunts them

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I wouldn't have thought so (I'm sure most on here will know and tell me I'm wrong). If you owe someone money, surely you can't just stop owing it without their agreement, unless you're bankrupt? Presumably creditors normally choose to have some pennies in the pound as opposed to nothing. HMRC didn't accept that with Rangers. so they got nothing and club was liquidated.

They should ask Palace. They're great at shafting creditors then going on telly with their likkle lips twembling and telling us why we should all feel sorry for them...at least until yet another "consortium" of millionaires get hold of the club for a pound and fluke their way to the premier league.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

A holding company like Burnden Leisure Plc?

I couldn't find the 2015 accounts for Burden Leisure at Companies House when I looked yesterday (or any BHA entity for that matter).
However, as Bozza (and others) were referring to Bolton Wanderers being served with a winding up order, losses of £10M, debt of £180M+ etc, I assumed they were talking about Bolton Wanderers and Athletic Football Club Ltd. BWAFC Ltd is a subsidiary of Burden Leisure and is the "football club" entity; it also owns both the Macon Stadium and the on-site hotel (unlike the situation with BHAFC and the Amex/Lancing). As the football league member it is BWAFC who would be deducted any points etc.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Apart from 1 season when we were at Withdean, this club has lost money every season going back to some time during Goldstone era.

Since moving into the Amex, we have lost £8.9 million, £14.7 million, £10.6 million and £10.4 million, giving a total loss of £44.6 million - that's before you look at our total debt figure

So it's fair to say that we are not living within our means, (if we were, we wouldn't have the Amex because the club couldn't have afforded to build it) and we could still end up in a similar position as Bolton face now should Bloom decided to copy the Bolton owner and refuse to fund any more losses - So, although we haven't reached the PL, you could say our league position is artifically higher than it should be and this was also very true during the Withdean years.

How many calls for a reduced squad, less spending or just a re-balancing of our books have you seen on NSC (or elsewhere) this season? or has it been the opposite where fans want cheaper tickets, cheaper food and drink, more spent on players, etc...- So if the worst does happen, do you think it's fair to say it's then our fans fault like you are doing with the Bolton fans

£10million losses per season are sustainable if permitted by FFP and if the owner is willing to pay for it. The real no-no is carrying on in the same vein if the owner is NOT willing to pay and can't sell to someone who is - that is the game-changer and is the place at which Bolton find themselves.

Of course the Albion are lucky to have Bloom but I have no doubt he'd get every penny of his money back and more if we reach the Prem and he sold up at that point.

If there are rich individuals who are willing to cover FFP-permitted losses then why should they not be permitted to own clubs? There is much kudos attached to owning a football club, it is a useful asset in the world of business.

 

[wakeytom]

There are some interesting comments on here, the fact is we are living beyond our means which is fine as long as TB continues to support the club.

As for Bolton, I feel for their fans but it must be said they didn’t make hay while the sun shone and overspent big time with plenty of income handed to them on a plate

Hate to say it the 3rd re-incarnation of Palace is a good example of how to live within their means, it just their past that haunts them

I think the trouble is when they were in the PL although the crop was better than the football league the hay you can make this year let alone next is so different so there is no way you could live long term from what you earnt for that time you were there