[Football] Beware the Qataris bearing gifts

[southstandandy]

Even a handful of deaths relating to the building of the stadia are too amny.

If say we were building a few new grounds in the UK and 10 people died in their construction, there would be uproar.

1 or 6500 is still too many. But I suppose as long as Beckham bags his £150m promotional endorsement of the tournament then it's not all bad.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Not according to the article that was shared.

What's confusing? I've no doubt that they obtained the world cup by using underhand tactics. But regardless of them having the world cup or not it was and continues to be a very quickly developing nation. The difference in the place from when I first visited in 2009 to my last visit in 2019 is amazing. Granted the expansion might not have been as much without the world cup but they still would have brought in migrant labour and there still would have been deaths. Which will continue to happen post world cup I'm sure.



Right....course we'd never bring in cheap labour from abroad would we. And again world cup or not those deaths still would have happened.



A quick google tells me over the same period we had 1700 work related deaths in the UK the majority of which were in the construction industry and I would think we have a pretty good health and safety legislation in this country. Not really a surprise that Qatar don't is it? I'm sure you've been on holiday to many places over the world and looked at a building site and thought "bloody hell that doesn't look safe" I know I have. Chuck in outrageous temperatures to the mix and a nation that is built on extreme wealth and why is anyone shocked?

Moaning about it is just a convenient drum to bang currently because they biggest sporting event in the world is happening there. No one has got upset about that part of the world shooting up from a desert to the playground for the rich and famous over the last 30 years until Qatar got the world cup. Qatar will continue to develop post the world cup and I'm sure many more people will die but no one will give a **** next year because the next do-gooder crusade will come along. Sad yes, but also the reality.

The HSE report for the UK reported a total of 123 killed in all work-related accidents in 2021/22 with 30 deaths arising from the construction industry. Let’s assume say an average of 50 UK construction deaths on average over the last 10 years. That equates to 500 deaths. I would say that is in no way comparable to 6,500 construction related deaths in Qatar.

 

[Baldseagull]

The 6,500 figure (taken from the Guardian article) is for the deaths of all migrant workers from India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Pakistan in the ten years between 2011 and 2020. Not just deaths from working in construction let alone World Cup infrastructure. It includes all deaths, not just deaths as a result of accidents or un-safe working conditions.

The number is still very high and working conditions on many of the projects were (and in many cases still are) horrendous but to state that 6,500 people have died as a direct result of working on projects related to the World Cup is just wrong and potentially undermines legitimate concerns.

Qatar official figures have just over 15,000 non Qatari deaths between 2010 and 2019, these are all professions and nationalities and all causes, I accept that the 6500 figure in the Guardian is not purely World Cup related projects.
Part of the problem is that Qatar is not determining cause of death properly, if a man in his 30's is found dead in his accommodation, it is just recorded as heart or respiratory failure, without a cause for that failure, and listed as natural causes.
Stadium projects for the World Cup tend to have better H&S than is required by Qatari law, and Qatar claims there have been 37 deaths of workers from those sites since 2015, but there are many projects that are related to the World Cup indirectly that they have produced no data for.

 

[FatSuperman]

Moaning about it is just a convenient drum to bang currently because they biggest sporting event in the world is happening there. No one has got upset about that part of the world shooting up from a desert to the playground for the rich and famous over the last 30 years until Qatar got the world cup. Qatar will continue to develop post the world cup and I'm sure many more people will die but no one will give a **** next year because the next do-gooder crusade will come along. Sad yes, but also the reality.

Who gives a toss about why the issue has come to the forefront of people's minds? You use 'do-gooder' like it's a slur. When did it became negative to want to do good, or to care about others? I can guarantee you that if hundreds or thousands of people were dying on UK construction projects, there would be much, much more of an uproar. People care about it because before the world cup, labour practices and deaths in Qatar weren't really on anybody's radar over here. Why is that surprising? It doesn't make it meddling by do-ggoders just because some people think it's wrong. You seem to be advocating just ignoring it because it was already happening.

I actually find it incredible that people from civilised nations even want to go to those desert towns in the Middle-East, given their appalling approach to human rights, women's rights, gender equality, gay rights, etc. I know we are far, far from perfect. But I genuinely think half of the Middle East is like Britain 500 years ago, in terms of sensibilities.

 

[Arthur]

Who gives a toss about why the issue has come to the forefront of people's minds? You use 'do-gooder' like it's a slur. When did it became negative to want to do good, or to care about others? I can guarantee you that if hundreds or thousands of people were dying on UK construction projects, there would be much, much more of an uproar. People care about it because before the world cup, labour practices and deaths in Qatar weren't really on anybody's radar over here. Why is that surprising? It doesn't make it meddling by do-ggoders just because some people think it's wrong. You seem to be advocating just ignoring it because it was already happening.

Nothing wrong with wanting to do good at all....but expressing outrage on an internet forum because it's the latest thing to get upset about isn't doing good is it.

Will Qatar's labour practices be on anyone's radar post world cup? Don't think so.

I actually find it incredible that people from civilised nations even want to go to those desert towns in the Middle-East, given their appalling approach to human rights, women's rights, gender equality, gay rights, etc. I know we are far, far from perfect. But I genuinely think half of the Middle East is like Britain 500 years ago, in terms of sensibilities.

Because it's warm and they've made it nice. People like heat and nice things.

 

[nicko31]

The Qataris are welcome to the likes of Manchester Utd. Apart from the customary three points what do they actually do for us ? I am happy to be rid of all six of them and replace them with clubs from the Championship.

Agree I'm reaching that point of view too, take their clubs and their plastics with them

 

[Baldseagull]

Not according to the article that was shared.



What's confusing? I've no doubt that they obtained the world cup by using underhand tactics. But regardless of them having the world cup or not it was and continues to be a very quickly developing nation. The difference in the place from when I first visited in 2009 to my last visit in 2019 is amazing. Granted the expansion might not have been as much without the world cup but they still would have brought in migrant labour and there still would have been deaths. Which will continue to happen post world cup I'm sure.



Right....course we'd never bring in cheap labour from abroad would we. And again world cup or not those deaths still would have happened.



A quick google tells me over the same period we had 1700 work related deaths in the UK the majority of which were in the construction industry and I would think we have a pretty good health and safety legislation in this country. Not really a surprise that Qatar don't is it? I'm sure you've been on holiday to many places over the world and looked at a building site and thought "bloody hell that doesn't look safe" I know I have. Chuck in outrageous temperatures to the mix and a nation that is built on extreme wealth and why is anyone shocked?

Moaning about it is just a convenient drum to bang currently because they biggest sporting event in the world is happening there. No one has got upset about that part of the world shooting up from a desert to the playground for the rich and famous over the last 30 years until Qatar got the world cup. Qatar will continue to develop post the world cup and I'm sure many more people will die but no one will give a **** next year because the next do-gooder crusade will come along. Sad yes, but also the reality.

It's the outrageous wealth that makes it such a disgrace, they could afford to ensure better conditions for workers. I am not shocked, I am disgusted though, I find myself wondering if it was thousands of Brits that had died there unnecessarily just trying to earn a crust, whether you would give a shit, or not, as long as you get a nice hotel?
You can't pretend that they don't have the ability to do it, they just lack the will.

The problem is not that they have brought in cheap labour, there need foreign workers, but they should not work them in extreme heat for 12 hours or more. Qatar is the wealthiest per capita country in the world, they could afford better, safer working practices. You could probably afford a bit more compassion than you seem to have, and worry less about how fair it is for FIFA's world cup to be tarnished by the country it's hosted in because of backhanders.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It's the outrageous wealth that makes it such a disgrace, they could afford to ensure better conditions for workers. I am not shocked, I am disgusted though, I find myself wondering if it was thousands of Brits that had died there unnecessarily just trying to earn a crust, whether you would give a shit, or not, as long as you get a nice hotel?
You can't pretend that they don't have the ability to do it, they just lack the will.

The problem is not that they have brought in cheap labour, there need foreign workers, but they should not work them in extreme heat for 12 hours or more. Qatar is the wealthiest per capita country in the world, they could afford better, safer working practices. You could probably afford a bit more compassion than you seem to have, and worry less about how fair it is for FIFA's world cup to be tarnished by the country it's hosted in because of backhanders.

That is precisely the problem though. The stadium workers are the tip of the iceberg. Foreign workers are brought in precisely because they are cheap and expendable. It is a significant contributor to the new Qatar they are building. When we lived in Singapore we didn’t have maids or anything like that. We did hear through the grapevine about the rapes of maids in Qatar. Exploitation of cheap foreign labour drives the whole thing and workers rights as would be demanded by local workers are not on offer hence the cheapness.

 

[Eeyore]

The 6,500 figure (taken from the Guardian article) is for the deaths of all migrant workers from India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka and Pakistan in the ten years between 2011 and 2020. Not just deaths from working in construction let alone World Cup infrastructure. It includes all deaths, not just deaths as a result of accidents or un-safe working conditions.

The number is still very high and working conditions on many of the projects were (and in many cases still are) horrendous but to state that 6,500 people have died as a direct result of working on projects related to the World Cup is just wrong and potentially undermines legitimate concerns.

The figure is irrelevant. I can't comprehend people arguing up or down numbers like there's a level of acceptable unacceptability.

The whole process has been rotten and exploitative from start to finish.

Amnesty International is a pretty gospel authority

Searches:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/search/world cup/

A single summary 2020

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde22/3297/2020/en/