Bedroom tax

[beorhthelm]

Is there more than one person posting for your account!? You're pretty much having an argument with yourself at this point, I think I'll let you carry on...

i'll spell it out. you say "we're not really hearing any policies that are hitting the wealthy in any shape or form". i'm asking who you think are the wealthy that arent being hit already. i present some facts to qualify this, to highlight that the "wealthy" are already paying an awful lot, contrary to popularist ideas they are getting a free ride. silly side shows of 45% or 50% tax do nothing meaningful to the finances (it raised half the expected amount didnt it?), though getting rid of that higher rate at that time was stupid of course. so is the pithy little "in it together" slogan. or calling bankers "anarchists", which make no sence either literally or metaphorically.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It is also the case that those who choose to take degrees with little of no vocational value are wasting their time. Does this country need so many blokes with a "Sports Science" dergee? Probably not. If people had the sense to rake degrees that increased their value in the jobs market like Enginering, they would have more chance of a job at the end of it. You really think that employers are interested in the small amount of skills that someone acquired in their studies over someone in a degree that prepared the candidate for the job on offer? Dream on.

That is the trouble these days - too many wasters think the Government owe them a living, paid for by the "rich" who have got off their arses and made something of their lives.

And where are these UK engineering jobs then? There was an utterly fascinating documentary on Radio 4 yesterday about the basket case of UK car manufacturing and by extension engineering. A lof the stuff we do claim to make is only assembled in the UK and the supply chains for engineered parts and components are from abroad. JCB was used as an example: 70% of the alleged British JCB is sourced from aborad even though they have a buy-British policy in place; the components are mainly German and Italian which also puts paid to the general idea that the Chinese are making engineered components cheaply (high oil prices for shipping and 30-40% year on year wage increases are starting to bite) . So, not only does the UK lose out on the supply chain the cost of the JCB is rising because of the components are paid for in Euros or dollars. The argument that our products are cheaper because of the poor exchange rate is bull shit in the case of the motor industry. My point being an engineering degree is as valid or valuable as a degree in anything at the moment....unless you want to leave the country that is.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I can't claim to understand the first thing about politics really

This does not prevent anyone else on here voicing their political views...please carry on.

 

[Bakero]

It is also the case that those who choose to take degrees with little of no vocational value are wasting their time. Does this country need so many blokes with a "Sports Science" dergee? Probably not. If people had the sense to rake degrees that increased their value in the jobs market like Enginering, they would have more chance of a job at the end of it. You really think that employers are interested in the small amount of skills that someone acquired in their studies over someone in a degree that prepared the candidate for the job on offer? Dream on.

That is the trouble these days - too many wasters think the Government owe them a living, paid for by the "rich" who have got off their arses and made something of their lives.

I'd disagree with your assertion that taking a degree with little vocational value is a waste of time. Conversely, I'd agree that if you do a degree without a clear career path, you can't complain if you don't get a job at the end of it. It'd be useful if there was decent careers guidance in schools.

You haven't responded to the issue of wages not covering living costs. Surely you don't really believe that anyone receiving benefits is a waster. As mentioned before, there are a lot of hard working families who receive benefits in various forms. And what about the rich wasters? Hard work doesn't correlate with wealth.

 

[Hotchilidog]

And where are these UK engineering jobs then? There was an utterly fascinating documentary on Radio 4 yesterday about the basket case of UK car manufacturing and by extension engineering. A lof the stuff we do claim to make is only assembled in the UK and the supply chains for engineered parts and components are from abroad. JCB was used as an example: 70% of the alleged British JCB is sourced from aborad even though they have a buy-British policy in place; the components are mainly German and Italian which also puts paid to the general idea that the Chinese are making engineered components cheaply (high oil prices for shipping and 30-40% year on year wage increases are starting to bite) . So, not only does the UK lose out on the supply chain the cost of the JCB is rising because of the components are paid for in Euros or dollars. The argument that our products are cheaper because of the poor exchange rate is bull shit in the case of the motor industry. My point being an engineering degree is as valid or valuable as a degree in anything at the moment....unless you want to leave the country that is.

Finally the sound of a nail firmly being hit on the head. Where the hell are all these jobs that the last scroungers are meant to go and get. We have a low skill, low wage economy, following the destruction of manufacturing industry and an over reliance on service industries.

The problem this country has is not high benefits, but low wages and poor quality jobs which prevent any major stimulus to the economy. All this current bunch of clueless idiots are doing is taking money out of the economy by making it more difficult for companies to sell their wares and services at a reasonable price. Having a bunch of millionaires who have never had to worry about where their next meal is coming from, or do a decent days work, lecture those in need how to live their lives is quite frankly nauseating.

 

[Bakero]

And where are these UK engineering jobs then? There was an utterly fascinating documentary on Radio 4 yesterday about the basket case of UK car manufacturing and by extension engineering. A lof the stuff we do claim to make is only assembled in the UK and the supply chains for engineered parts and components are from abroad. JCB was used as an example: 70% of the alleged British JCB is sourced from aborad even though they have a buy-British policy in place; the components are mainly German and Italian which also puts paid to the general idea that the Chinese are making engineered components cheaply (high oil prices for shipping and 30-40% year on year wage increases are starting to bite) . So, not only does the UK lose out on the supply chain the cost of the JCB is rising because of the components are paid for in Euros or dollars. The argument that our products are cheaper because of the poor exchange rate is bull shit in the case of the motor industry. My point being an engineering degree is as valid or valuable as a degree in anything at the moment....unless you want to leave the country that is.

This.

Finally the sound of a nail firmly being hit on the head. Where the hell are all these jobs that the last scroungers are meant to go and get. We have a low skill, low wage economy, following the destruction of manufacturing industry and an over reliance on service industries.

The problem this country has is not high benefits, but low wages and poor quality jobs which prevent any major stimulus to the economy. All this current bunch of clueless idiots are doing is taking money out of the economy by making it more difficult for companies to sell their wares and services at a reasonable price. Having a bunch of millionaires who have never had to worry about where their next meal is coming from, or do a decent days work, lecture those in need how to live their lives is quite frankly nauseating.

And this.

 

[Common as Mook]

The previous government, allegedly, screwed the economy. The current cannot run an economy. But, at least the previous government did not turn citizens against citizens, screw the disadvantaged, demonise the less off well and stigmatize anyone who dares to claim benefit. It's arrogant, spiteful and nasty. If you want the UK to be a horrible country full of spite, bitterness and envy then carry on. The economy is utterly ****ed regardless of who is leading it; so you might as well be nice to each other. And you can make a start on this by voting the current morons out.

Interesting comments considering your first contribution to this thread.

If there is a nastier, more spiteful and vindictive poster on here than you, I've yet to see one.

 

[Bold Seagull]

i'll spell it out. you say "we're not really hearing any policies that are hitting the wealthy in any shape or form". i'm asking who you think are the wealthy that arent being hit already. i present some facts to qualify this, to highlight that the "wealthy" are already paying an awful lot, contrary to popularist ideas they are getting a free ride. silly side shows of 45% or 50% tax do nothing meaningful to the finances (it raised half the expected amount didnt it?), though getting rid of that higher rate at that time was stupid of course. so is the pithy little "in it together" slogan. or calling bankers "anarchists", which make no sence either literally or metaphorically.

Perhaps instead of spelling it out, you should reread posts to make sure you've understood. You stated "it's sad people descend into partisan class/wealth wars", I offered a reason as to why this is the case. You've then decided to simply continue headlong into a partisan class/wealth discussion which I simply do not wish to enter. However you seem hell bent on it despite thinking it's sad.

You've then for a second time twisted my words in referring to 'bankers', when I referred to the much larger umbrella for the term 'financial sector' which of course is a global reference. The anarchists comment I cannot claim originality for to be honest as William Gibson has long referred to the multinationals running outside of any one governments control being the true anarchists of the post modern world. It might not make sense to you, but it has to the millions that have read and loved his novels.

Anyway, your post above answers your own comment once again with regard to why the debate ends up polarised - probably due to people like yourself. You've done a grand job.

 

[beorhthelm]

And where are these UK engineering jobs then? ...

on the other hand, Airbus and Boeing buy Rolls Royce engines made here. Lucas supplies parts to the German auto industry. its not even new thing to source abroad, and it goes both ways and always has. apparently the car industry in this country is in good health, factories producing more now than the 70's - albeit fewer factories and fewer employees, because robotics has replaced lots of the jobs. i didnt hear what you where listening to, but it seems their point was about the supply chain. the problem here is we dont like the dirty parts of industry here, while other parts of the world perfer the jobs. people here complain about the pig farm the other end of the village, as it spoils their Sunday breakfast of bacon and sausages.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

on the other hand, Airbus and Boeing buy Rolls Royce engines made here. Lucas supplies parts to the German auto industry. its not even new thing to source abroad, and it goes both ways and always has. apparently the car industry in this country is in good health, factories producing more now than the 70's - albeit fewer factories and fewer employees, because robotics has replaced lots of the jobs. i didnt hear what you where listening to, but it seems their point was about the supply chain. the problem here is we dont like the dirty parts of industry here, while other parts of the world perfer the jobs. people here complain about the pig farm the other end of the village, as it spoils their Sunday breakfast of bacon and sausages.

Made or assembled here? I cannot speak for these companies but will be interested to know about their supply chains.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If there is a nastier, more spiteful and vindictive poster on here than you, I've yet to see one.

Charming.

 

[beorhthelm]

Perhaps instead of spelling it out, you should reread posts to make sure you've understood. You stated "it's sad people descend into partisan class/wealth wars", I offered a reason as to why this is the case. You've then decided to simply continue headlong into a partisan class/wealth discussion which I simply do not wish to enter. However you seem hell bent on it despite thinking it's sad.

i suppose i see that i've come at it differently because i've attempted at least to bring economics to the debate. the cold hard numbers. you still havent answered which group you percieve to be the wealthy, nor how much you think they should be contributing. i didnt intend to twist words, assumed you use bankers and financial sector interchangably like everyone seems to. Anarchist suggests outside of state control, but contrary to popular belief they are very much operating with regulations provide by the state, EU and international, and they require the state in order to function, possibly more so than any other industry.

 

[beorhthelm]

Made or assembled here? I cannot speak for these companies but will be interested to know about their supply chains.

major components made here. how much in total is made here or assembled from foreign parts i dont know. its a fine line between made and assembled, i doubt any manufacture in the west is 100% local, and china only has so much because they've allowed every tom, dick and harry to build plants there to make the dirty bit, while the design and cleaner bits stay in US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan etc. unfortunatly we may have neglected too much so when production does leave them it will go to eastern Europe rather than here.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

major components made here. how much in total is made here or assembled from foreign parts i dont know. its a fine line between made and assembled, i doubt any manufacture in the west is 100% local, and china only has so much because they've allowed every tom, dick and harry to build plants there to make the dirty bit, while the design and cleaner bits stay in US, Europe, Japan, Taiwan etc. unfortunatly we may have neglected too much so when production does leave them it will go to eastern Europe rather than here.

The interesting part of the JCB case study was that the majority of the components, 70%, are sourced outside the UK but mainly from Germany and Italy. So whilst not 100% UK made it is pretty much 100% EU made. If Germany or Italy can make JCB bits I wonder the UK cannot make them? This would not only be good for the economy but would also bring down the cost of the JCB at this precise moment.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

i suppose i see that i've come at it differently because i've attempted at least to bring economics to the debate. the cold hard numbers. you still havent answered which group you percieve to be the wealthy, nor how much you think they should be contributing. i didnt intend to twist words, assumed you use bankers and financial sector interchangably like everyone seems to. Anarchist suggests outside of state control, but contrary to popular belief they are very much operating with regulations provide by the state, EU and international, and they require the state in order to function, possibly more so than any other industry.

Whilst it is not me you are asking I'd start with those who benefited from the 5% tax cut. All in it together eh?

 

[Bold Seagull]

i suppose i see that i've come at it differently because i've attempted at least to bring economics to the debate. the cold hard numbers. you still havent answered which group you percieve to be the wealthy, nor how much you think they should be contributing. i didnt intend to twist words, assumed you use bankers and financial sector interchangably like everyone seems to. Anarchist suggests outside of state control, but contrary to popular belief they are very much operating with regulations provide by the state, EU and international, and they require the state in order to function, possibly more so than any other industry.

Sorry, how clear do I need to be, I simply gave you a reason the debate ends up polarised in answer to your own statement - this doesn't mean I have to believe the reasons for that, simply that I understand why it's polarised. I find it hard to believe someone who stated that people who do this are sad, is just doing it themselves over and over again.

As for the idea of a corporate anarchism (anarchy does afterall having many definitions/applications/ideologies), I really don't think you're going to get it from me no matter how hard I try to explain. I'd suggest you try to pick up Virtual Light by William Gibson. Fantastic dystopian novel which formed the first book in Gibson's Bridge trilogy. Not only a first rate novel, but given it was written 20 years ago, explores some really pertinent ideas that probably hold some real truth today.

 

[Common as Mook]

Charming.

Not nice is it?

 

[pork pie]

And where are these UK engineering jobs then? There was an utterly fascinating documentary on Radio 4 yesterday about the basket case of UK car manufacturing and by extension engineering. A lof the stuff we do claim to make is only assembled in the UK and the supply chains for engineered parts and components are from abroad. JCB was used as an example: 70% of the alleged British JCB is sourced from aborad even though they have a buy-British policy in place; the components are mainly German and Italian which also puts paid to the general idea that the Chinese are making engineered components cheaply (high oil prices for shipping and 30-40% year on year wage increases are starting to bite) . So, not only does the UK lose out on the supply chain the cost of the JCB is rising because of the components are paid for in Euros or dollars. The argument that our products are cheaper because of the poor exchange rate is bull shit in the case of the motor industry. My point being an engineering degree is as valid or valuable as a degree in anything at the moment....unless you want to leave the country that is.

Nobody is pretending that there are loads of jobs out there. Labour's distruction of our economy made that impossible.

HOWEVER, graduates stand more chance of finding a suitable job with a vocationally biased Degree than with a purely acamemic one. It is my undertanding that there is now a trend amongst manufacturers to bring jobs back to the UK, due to the unreliable nature of production in China for example. I know people within the engineering sector that simply cannot get enough UK produced components. If you don't believe me, take a look at the job adverts, and see where the live vacancies are. Sadly for graduates, as there are lots of experienced and well qualified workers out there, they will be given priority over someone with no experience. The are definitely graduate jobs within the engineering sector out there for good candidates, but even with a Degree, it is still down to the person holding it. If you are an engineer for example, and I mean real engineers and not a car assembly line worker, you will find a job sooner than the guy with a degree in Sports Science or English Lit.

 

[pork pie]

The interesting part of the JCB case study was that the majority of the components, 70%, are sourced outside the UK but mainly from Germany and Italy. So whilst not 100% UK made it is pretty much 100% EU made. If Germany or Italy can make JCB bits I wonder the UK cannot make them? This would not only be good for the economy but would also bring down the cost of the JCB at this precise moment.

Because too many bloody stupid career guidance teachers tell kids to take the soft subjects to make their results look good. Germans in particular are proud to be engineers. How many UK Grads even thought about taking an engineering degree? Come to that, how many were good enough at maths and physics to get accepted on an engineering degree course?

 

[Bold Seagull]

Because too many bloody stupid career guidance teachers tell kids to take the soft subjects to make their results look good. Germans in particular are proud to be engineers. How many UK Grads even thought about taking an engineering degree? Come to that, how many were good enough at maths and physics to get accepted on an engineering degree course?

We have some of the most reputable engineering practices in the world, probably 6 or 7 of the top 50 Universities in the world for teaching engineering. Do you just post whatever pops into your head, or do you ever have any background sources for these amazing statements!?