BBC Rogue Traders' Dan Penteado admits benefit fraud.

[Mo Gosfield]

So thats it then. We will no longer see two leather clad men, sitting in extremely close proximity to each other on prime time tv.

 

[cunning fergus]

Ah, I edited my original post and appear to have cut off the legal part before tax avoidance. Whilst benefit fraud does irk me, it is less damaging to the British economy than tax avoidance, ala Vodafone.

But did Vodafone break the law? You can keep pissing your pants about the tax avoidance of corporates (like Vodafone), however there is no evidence that they or other companies are doing anything illegal. Vodafone's public statement does not admit any guilt.........you should sue them if you know better.

http://www.vodafone.com/content/index/media/faqs_statements/vodafone_uktax.html

Even the pious Guardian has its finances all wrapped up in trusts in offshore arrangements in the Cayman Islands........it would be nice if UK Uncut could spread their protests up to their Manchester offices.........I wont hold my breath.

By all means direct you rage at the tax laws, and they may need updating but then we have had years of that, Tolleys was less than 5k pages in 1997, but it was 12k pages by the end of the Labour Govt. Even the HMRC are f***ing clueless thoug, how many system problems have they had........not that anyone lost their job..........I wonder if Hester will be treated with such sympathy?

The unpalatable truth on the tax avoidance issue is that the higher taxes are, then so we will see a corresponding increase on tax avoidance measures. This is all over, from Phillip Green to Joe Soap. Take fags, the tax avoided due to smuggling has gone through the roof in recent years and anecdotal evidence indicates 50% of rolling tobacco has avoided UK tax. We are seeing the same with counterfeit booze now........in 1990 there were hardly any prosections by customs in this area and in 2009/10 over 3000........go figure.

Benefit fraud on the other hand is illegal, and whilst it only irks you for many other taxpayers these fraudsters are lower than dogshit. They take from those who need benefits and from the taxpayer. I would gladly take 1%of Jimmy Carr's million pound income than f*** all from f*** all.

 

[Castello]

But there is a world of difference between criminal benefit fraud and legal tax avoidance.
I, and I'd think most people, get more annoyed by someone lying and making a false claim to take money from the state, than I do someone paying an accountant to find loopholes through which to pay less tax on their own money. It would be good to have a government (we never have yet) that dramatically simplified the tax system and closed those loopholes so that those earning millions were unable to pay a lower percentage of their income than those earning thirty or forty grand a year, but that's another subject.

However Tax evasion which is illegal costs between 10 and 15 times as muuch as benefit fraud. Tax evasion is estimated at between £10 - £15 billion (with tax avoidance the legal variety adding another £20- £25 billion). Whereas benefit fraud is estimated at £1 billion pounds.

Tax evasion costs Treasury 15 times more than benefit fraud - Citywire Money


It seems once again the rich are bigger cheats than the poor.

 

[Aadam]

But did Vodafone break the law? You can keep pissing your pants about the tax avoidance of corporates (like Vodafone), however there is no evidence that they or other companies are doing anything illegal. Vodafone's public statement does not admit any guilt.........you should sue them if you know better.

http://www.vodafone.com/content/index/media/faqs_statements/vodafone_uktax.html

Even the pious Guardian has its finances all wrapped up in trusts in offshore arrangements in the Cayman Islands........it would be nice if UK Uncut could spread their protests up to their Manchester offices.........I wont hold my breath.

By all means direct you rage at the tax laws, and they may need updating but then we have had years of that, Tolleys was less than 5k pages in 1997, but it was 12k pages by the end of the Labour Govt. Even the HMRC are f***ing clueless thoug, how many system problems have they had........not that anyone lost their job..........I wonder if Hester will be treated with such sympathy?

The unpalatable truth on the tax avoidance issue is that the higher taxes are, then so we will see a corresponding increase on tax avoidance measures. This is all over, from Phillip Green to Joe Soap. Take fags, the tax avoided due to smuggling has gone through the roof in recent years and anecdotal evidence indicates 50% of rolling tobacco has avoided UK tax. We are seeing the same with counterfeit booze now........in 1990 there were hardly any prosections by customs in this area and in 2009/10 over 3000........go figure.

Benefit fraud on the other hand is illegal, and whilst it only irks you for many other taxpayers these fraudsters are lower than dogshit. They take from those who need benefits and from the taxpayer. I would gladly take 1%of Jimmy Carr's million pound income than f*** all from f*** all.

Whilst I'm not a tax expert, I believe the court case was brought about because the UK tax office believed Vodafone had broken the law and owed more in taxes, but Vodafone disagreed. Of course Vodafone will think they've not broken any laws, that's why this whole thing had dragged on for so long and ended up at the ECJ. A lot of court dates later and a settlement was agreed. I don't know all the details, but to me that was it. Still, Vodafone by their own admission admit that "All individuals and companies are obliged to respect the tax laws of the countries in which they operate. Within those laws, individuals and companies have the right to structure their commercial affairs in a way which is tax-efficient. This has been a fundamental principle of tax legislation around the world for generations."

By the same token, Jimmy Carr structured his affairs in a way which were tax-efficient for him. But look what happened to him... What if we all start structuring our finances to be more tax efficient, that'll be a good idea...

As I said before, tax avoidance is more damaging to the UK economy than benefit fraud, objectively speaking. I don't think you can compare the two and have a choice which you would prefer. 'Damage the economy but it's okay if we put a few benefit fraudsters in jail'... Each on their own merit is wrong, I'm not saying either are better than the other. Financially speaking, one is more damaging than the other, I think we can both agree on that.

 

[Cian]

Shiver me frickin timbers!

Not condoning what he did or making any link to it, but circa £56k in earnings for 2-3 years work doesn't seem much for a BBC Co-presenter on a prime time show!

You would be amazed by how little even well known names in TV or radio can be paid. There are effectively utterly insane wages for the "big names", and very poor ones.

15 hour a week (on-air, with prep time its a lot more) daytime radio presenter wages could be £15,000. This is why a lot of them whore out doing club DJing, public events, etc. This lad likely worked far less than that even.

 

[cunning fergus]

However Tax evasion which is illegal costs between 10 and 15 times as muuch as benefit fraud. Tax evasion is estimated at between £10 - £15 billion (with tax avoidance the legal variety adding another £20- £25 billion). Whereas benefit fraud is estimated at £1 billion pounds.

Tax evasion costs Treasury 15 times more than benefit fraud - Citywire Money


It seems once again the rich are bigger cheats than the poor.

Any chance you could clarify where the legal tax evasion figure comes from?

The article you attached (if accurate) details ALL illegal fraud most of which is against the public sector.........all £18bn worth of fraud. It appears that only £1bn of the £18bn is from benefit fraud.

If this is true the politicians who were in charge in 2008 should be horse whipped................they should never be allowed in office again. I am sure you will agree.

Nothing to celebrate and unless I am mistaken nothing that indicates it is perpetrated by the "rich".

 

[cunning fergus]

Whilst I'm not a tax expert, I believe the court case was brought about because the UK tax office believed Vodafone had broken the law and owed more in taxes, but Vodafone disagreed. Of course Vodafone will think they've not broken any laws, that's why this whole thing had dragged on for so long and ended up at the ECJ. A lot of court dates later and a settlement was agreed. I don't know all the details, but to me that was it. Still, Vodafone by their own admission admit that "All individuals and companies are obliged to respect the tax laws of the countries in which they operate. Within those laws, individuals and companies have the right to structure their commercial affairs in a way which is tax-efficient. This has been a fundamental principle of tax legislation around the world for generations."

By the same token, Jimmy Carr structured his affairs in a way which were tax-efficient for him. But look what happened to him... What if we all start structuring our finances to be more tax efficient, that'll be a good idea...

As I said before, tax avoidance is more damaging to the UK economy than benefit fraud, objectively speaking. I don't think you can compare the two and have a choice which you would prefer. 'Damage the economy but it's okay if we put a few benefit fraudsters in jail'... Each on their own merit is wrong, I'm not saying either are better than the other. Financially speaking, one is more damaging than the other, I think we can both agree on that.

BUT, regardless of your understanding of UK tax law, you are saying that Vodafone acting legally is more offensive than an individual acting illegally. That is not logical. If the board of Vodafone were guilty of breaking the law then they should be charged and convicted................this is not what has happened.

If you think that the tax laws are wrong then that is where you should be directing your rage. But, it is a fact that when taxes are high so will tax evasion (whether legal or illegal) and you only need to look at a country like Greece to understand what the implications of that can be.

The reality is it will be the rich (corporates and individuals) who can afford to do it................we should remove the incentive and take their tax gladly.

Criminals on the other hand should go to jail, whether CEO or Portuguese TV presenters..............those convicted of tax fraud or Benefit fraud should be forced to donate their internal organs or 20 pints of blood...........I am sure we can both agree on that.