Attila and St. George's Day Bash...

[Pavilionaire]

No worries Attila.

I'm surprised nobody has called for a separate English Parliament in all of this, a concept definitely worthy of serious consideration.

I find the present position untenable, and this will be heightened when Blair stands down and Brown takes over.

Having said that, I think we already have too many layers of bureaucracy, with parish councils, town and borough councils, county councils, the British Parliament and the European Parliament.

No wonder Worthing still has Teville Gate - paralysis by bureaucracy.

 

[BensGrandad]

I am rather astonished that you can still be a proud Englishman and not like the queen but you can't be a proud Brighton supporter and not like Dick Knight. Rather strange!!!

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I guess it comes down to how you answer the question "What have they ever done for us?"

 

[Brovion]

London Irish, the thing is I agree with a lot of what you say but I think sometimes it's you who doesn't think hard enough. OK, the 'I want to see cultures subsumed' was a bit of a banner headline and isn't perhaps an accurate reflection of what I think. However I disagree with your 'load of crap' analysis on the survival of some unpleasant aspects of cultures' customs. Arranged marriages for example are still very much a problem with male family members hunting down and even killing women who've tried to break with tradition. Some of the others won't happen all the while we can maintain a tolerant society.

Back to the school thing, I don't think you've seen the bigger picture, as I said in my original post it's given the BNP a glorious piece of publicty and I have to say I wouldn't have seen anything wrong with the minority white kids running round all day going "Ingerland, Ingerland, Ingerland!" Some of the non-whites might have joined in and if any white kid showed BNP tendencies "F*ck off Paki, you're not English", then they could have been educated on their error. However this would take more supervison than the (admittedly stressed) school could provide so banning was the easier, but wrong, solution.

Which brings me back to my original point, England DOES need a national day so that we can enforce the notion of 'different but united, stable but evolving". Just saying that 2G kids 'live it every day', without making any attempt to explain it to them or to say what their role is or how they can contribute is precisely what has got us into the situation where places like Tipton (TIPTON for crying out loud!) can produce young men so consumed with hatred that they're prepared to kill themselves as long as they can take a few Infidels with them.

 

[Gwylan]

London Irish, the thing is I agree with a lot of what you say but I think sometimes it's you who doesn't think hard enough. OK, the 'I want to see cultures subsumed' was a bit of a banner headline and isn't perhaps an accurate reflection of what I think. However I disagree with your 'load of crap' analysis on the survival of some unpleasant aspects of cultures' customs. Arranged marriages for example are still very much a problem with male family members hunting down and even killing women who've tried to break with tradition. Some of the others won't happen all the while we can maintain a tolerant society.

I think you're confusing arranged marriages with forced marriages. If the bride and groom are happy with an arranged marriage (and a lot are) then why should we impose different values on them? However, when someone, usually the bride, doesn't want to participate then it certainly is a problem and so-called honour killings (a misnomer if there ever was one) besmirch our society and, incidentally, Islam.

I don't think anything wrong with having an English national day, I just don't think that St George's Day is the right one. Too much baggage associated with it and too many religious connotations.

 

[Titanic]

How about Trafalgar Day - that sounds like a good one to me

 

[Gwylan]

End of October is a bit chilly, Titanic. We need another summer one.

 

[attila]

I'll go along with that - it's my birthday

 

[Brovion]

I accept your analysis Gwylan. Titanic, Trafalgar Day would be British, not English! As it would be if we made say Battle of Britian day a national day. Maybe the anniversary of the day we won the World Cup? After all football is the best we have for both establishing a modern, inclusive English identity and including non-whites, certainly the Afro-carribean community.

 

[Brovion]

Oh, and it's summer!

 

[BensGrandad]

Hate to be pedantic Lord B but Guinness is owned by an American company called DIAGEO and Stella is owned by a Begian company called INTERBREW.

Another piece of useless information for the past 4 years ALL Guinness sold in the EU was brewed at Park Royal in London but is now reverting back to Dublin as Park Royal is being closed. You can quote this to all the knowledgeable people who tell you Guinness is better in Ireland.
The only difference is inside the dispense head(tap).

 

[Ernest]

I am rather astonished that you can still be a proud Englishman and not like the queen but you can't be a proud Brighton supporter and not like Dick Knight. Rather strange!!!

I see this has been ignored by the clique

 

[fatbadger]

I see this has been ignored by the clique

Perhaps because most of us who disagreed with BG also disagreed with the sentiment he is now complaining about.

As for the main debate - I recently said on the 'what have you got out of NSC' thread that I really enjoyed the quality of debate on here. This thread again demonstrates why I spend time on here when I should be working.

It strikes me, Pavilionaire, that the Christmas comparison is apt - just as a pagan festival has been nabbed by the Church (not strictly true - only the date has ben colonised), so has the (ostensibly secular) nation nabbed a celebration of a Christian who has got nothing to do with this country for its own festivities!

As for Trafalgar Day ... hmm ... perhaps a better idea would be the day the Armada was defeated. That was an English, rather than British victory, and it did much more for the continuing independence and freedoms (such as they were, and are) of England than Trafalgar did. That's the 8th of August - nice and summery, as everyone (for some reason) wants our national day to be.

 

[fatbadger]

INationality isn't the issue, it's a celebration of all things Irish - culture, music, blood etc. The flag represents these aspects of life just as much as it represents the actual Republic Of Ireland.

Which is what makes the day political (and co-optable by different political groups).

 

[Ernest]

Perhaps because most of us who disagreed with BG also disagreed with the sentiment he is now complaining about.

As for the main debate - I recently said on the 'what have you got out of NSC' thread that I really enjoyed the quality of debate on here. This thread again demonstrates why I spend time on here when I should be working.

It strikes me, Pavilionaire, that the Christmas comparison is apt - just as a pagan festival has been nabbed by the Church (not strictly true - only the date has ben colonised), so has the (ostensibly secular) nation nabbed a celebration of a Christian who has got nothing to do with this country for its own festivities!

As for Trafalgar Day ... hmm ... perhaps a better idea would be the day the Armada was defeated. That was an English, rather than British victory, and it did much more for the continuing independence and freedoms (such as they were, and are) of England than Trafalgar did. That's the 8th of August - nice and summery, as everyone (for some reason) wants our national day to be.

Tell me this, so you can be English and hate the head of state and take the piss out of her but if you are a Brighton fan you cannot hate the head of state (chairman) and question their abilities.
Seems a bit like double standards and usual bullshit by Atilla and his poodles .

 

[fatbadger]

Tell me this, so you can be English and hate the head of state and take the piss out of her but if you are a Brighton fan you cannot hate the head of state (chairman) and question their abilities.
Seems a bit like double standards and usual bullshit by Atilla and his poodles .

Pay attention, you thick twat.

 

[Ernest]

Pay attention, you thick twat.

Ah, yes first rule of debating when you cannot answer a point resort to abuse so you don't have to answer .
Thank you for your time and I realise you cannot win this argument.
Your probably an armchair plastic fan anyway so you better rush as Man U are on SKY in a tick

 

[fatbadger]

Ah, yes first rule of debating when you cannot answer a point resort to abuse so you don't have to answer

I'm sorry - it's just what I say to my students when I realise they want me to repeat something because they weren't paying attention first time around.

 

[SM BHAFC]

Personally I would like to see a proper remeberence day that was actually on the day 11/11/11.

As for the Queen and the idea of having a royal family love it makes us what we are unique and the best country in the world, St Georges day is ok but I am British first and foremost so Trafalgar day would be good or Battle of Britain day even better.

I love the commonwealth and Empire stuff I reckon despite being based on the lining of Brittania's pockets and it has been the most succesful thing ever in bringing together people of so many different cultural backgrounds and races. Nothing is perfect but the Empire had a good go at it.

Rule Brittania, God Save The Queen

 

[Hungry Joe.]

What an absolutely blinding thread and, in a way, proof of what we can all celebrate as Englishness. I can't imagine any other countries citizens disecting and arguing over it's cultural and political history and contemporary state to the depths explored here. Even the off the cuff one-line posts are great and serve as a good breather.

I'm happily confused by my Englishness. I'm a socialist with republican leanings but I am fascinated by, and in many ways thankfull for our Royal history. I'm a libertarian and I hate discrimination yet loathe much of the PC bullshit and tunnel-visioned rants of the liberal moralists. I love much of what I see but am sickened by a great deal of what is modern England too.

I neither feel the need to display the flag of St.George nor burn it. I accept we are forever accepting collective guilt for past sins whilst quietly ignoring much of what The British Empire achieved.

I've got a headache now too.