Attila and St. George's Day Bash...

[fatbadger]

There's not much evidence of party politics,

Agreed, but since when has party politics been the be-all and end-all of politics?

Let me ask you this - do you not think that 'the nation' is a political concept? do you not think that declaring your national identity, let alone celebrating it, is a political statement?

Very few people go to church at Christmas - indeed, very little of what passes for Christmas nowadays is Christian - but that does not mean that Christmas is not a Christian festival.

 

[Brovion]

...Some kids at Mrs Gwylan's school wanted to celebrate the day and came in wearing the flag of St George (in direct contravention of school rules), so the flags were confiscated.

What? Well they fell for that one didn't they? That's PRECISELY the action they (the BNP) were hoping for, yet another example of Institutionalised, Politically Correct anti-English bias blah blah blah. Expect to see this event replayed in an Election Leaflet near you soon. We go on about the far-right being ignorant boneheads but it is sad when they can so easily out-think an apparently well-meaning but actually deeply cretinous school.

They should have given out St George's flags to all the kids and told they to go out and practise waving them ready for Euro 2004.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I like to use St. Patricks Day as an example, because I can't see any fundamental difference between that and St. George's Day.

Thousands of Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day. They are US nationals, residents, domiciled, passport-carrying Yanks.

Nationality isn't the issue, it's a celebration of all things Irish - culture, music, blood etc. The flag represents these aspects of life just as much as it represents the actual Republic Of Ireland.

I don't think the Christmas example is very apt. It was a pagan festival to start with, hijacked by the Church and the customs absorbed into a hybrid religion now known as Christianity.

 

[Gwylan]

What? Well they fell for that one didn't they? That's PRECISELY the action they (the BNP) were hoping for, yet another example of Institutionalised, Politically Correct anti-English bias blah blah blah. Expect to see this event replayed in an Election Leaflet near you soon. We go on about the far-right being ignorant boneheads but it is sad when they can so easily out-think an apparently well-meaning but actually deeply cretinous school.

They should have given out St George's flags to all the kids and told they to go out and practise waving them ready for Euro 2004.

That's only true if you think that schools are isolated from the rest of society Unfortunately, around that part of south-east London the flag of St George is associated with the BNP whether people like it or not.

I should point out that the flags were confiscated not for being St George's but for being against school rules. Kids would not be allowed to bring in the Tricolour on Paddy's day either.

 

[Titanic]

So how does that help 'promote and celebrate our cultural diversity' then ??

It's pathetic. Teachers should use symbols and celebration days to stimulate discussion and learning about our history, our culture and help children determine for themselves what is means and why it is important.

Banning things it not the way to do this.

 

[Pavilionaire]

One of the problems is that as a nation there is no traditional activity on St. George's Day.

What must happen is that demand needs to be created from the English people themselves, then the pubs will cotton on and soon all will be doing a St. George's Day.

Once this is more widespread you'll get retailers in on the act, i.e. Jamie Oliver advertising roast beef for Sainsburys, John Smiths / Boddingtons and the like coming up with higher profile campaigns etc.

Once more people take part in St George's Day activities I'm sure the schools will do something for the kids.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Personally, I don't see what's political about piling down to the pub on 17th March to get plastered on 10 pints of Guinness.

There's not much evidence of party politics, just a big of flag-waving, muppets dressed up as leprechauns, dusting off The Best Of The Pogues and away you go.

Or have I missed something?

Yes. You've missed a proper celebration of St Patrick's Day.

What you've stumbled across is an event laid on by a pub landlord who is under a contractual obligation to take on board the Irish Party Pack that most of the brewing industry now insist on sending out.

Don't worry about it. This nonsense all helps to keep down the price of Stella for the rest of the year.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Seeing as 1st May Euro Expansion Day is almost upon us I intend to enter into the spirit by celebrating Bastille Day this year in true French style...grabbing a couple of bottles of plonk and hiding behind the sofa.

If it is hot I might take the bottles outside and hide behind a tree instead...

 

[Gwylan]

So how does that help 'promote and celebrate our cultural diversity' then ??

It's pathetic. Teachers should use symbols and celebration days to stimulate discussion and learning about our history, our culture and help children determine for themselves what is means and why it is important.

Banning things it not the way to do this.

I don't know the exact figures but there are something like 85 different nationalities in this school and about 70 percent of the pupils don't speak English as their first language. I think that one thing that they are all aware of is 'cultural diversity'.

I don't know why the schools set the rules (and nor do you) but they are the professionals here and their opinions hold sway.

Teachers at this school have to deal with 900 inner-city kids, 90 percent of whom are on free meals, and a good many from single-parent families (in some cases, a 12 year old could be the carer). They try to give them an education that meets the tight criteria of government inspectors, at the same time meeting their pastoral needs. It's a heavy enough job without trying to 'stimulate discussion' on something that means little to the kids.

 

[Titanic]

That is not a school you are describing, Gwylan - it is a national disgrace!

Children with those sort of needs should not be bundled into institutions of that size - where it must be impossible to deliver a decent education. How can they possibly include the sort of cultural and individual opportunities needed to promote a decent society in that environment.

Education, education, education... don't make me sick Mr Blair!

 

[Gwylan]

You're right there Titanic. The staff work bloody hard at the school doing their best to provide a decent education but they're fighting against shocking environmental conditions.

Sadly, there are all too many similar schools in London. It would be great if teachers could lead stimulating discussions on identity and culture but most of the time it's about crowd control.

Education, education, education....don't make me laugh.

 

[Brovion]

A few points Gwylan, firstly they may be Education professionals but they know sod all about reality. Of couse the school is part of the society and community - so why antagonise and inflame opinion? If as you say most of the kids don't even speak English then they wouldn't even know what St George's day was let alone be offended by it. Also the staff sound as if they've got enough on their plates just surviving so why the empty political gestures?

I don't doubt that the BNP and the flag of St George are closely related in that neck of the woods which just goes to re-enforce Attila's point that we must reclaim it from the far right. What the far-right hate more than anything is inclusiveness, they thrive on division and hate. They also HATE it when people of non-Caucasian descent call themselves 'English'. "No you're not", they say, "you're colored!"

I'm sorry but it was a good result for the BNP.

 

[London Irish]

I'm sorry but it was a good result for the BNP.

Wrong! Think! To have loads of white kids wrapped in Union flags and all the 2G kids staring at them, that's precisely the kind of shit-stirring divisiveness the BNP wants. The school did exactly the right thing.

Englishness is the dominant culture in this country, it doesn't need special days put aside to celebrate it because we LIVE it every day. It is minority cultures that could get subsumed and lost that need careful protection and encouragement.

 

[Pavilionaire]

You can come from different cultures but unite under the same flag. St George's Day is about England, not about white people, and why shouldn't England have a national day?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

It is minority cultures that could get subsumed and lost that need careful protection and encouragement.

I agree.

And I'm not convinced by the arguments against multi-culturalism now being put forward by Trevor Phillips:-

Race chief wants integration push

Trevor Phillips, head of the Commission for Racial Equality, has called for all citizens to "assert a core of Britishness".
In an interview for the Times newspaper he said the term "multiculturalism" was of another era and should be scrapped.

He pleaded for greater tolerance of Muslims and said "we must call them British".

It follows a call by the Muslim Council of Britain to encourage Muslims to help in the fight against terror.

Sermons were delivered in mosques across the UK on Friday saying terrorism had no place in Islam, while booklets being printed will remind Muslims of their obligation to help safeguard Britain's security.

About 2,000 Muslims who attended a mosque in Regent's Park were said to be dismayed by about 20 British-born members of the extreme Islamic organisation Al Muhajiroun who burned Union Jacks outside.

The newspaper reported Prime Minister Tony Blair told his Cabinet on Thursday it must win the hearts of Britain's Muslims citizens.

U-turn

One of the founding principles of the commission Mr Phillips oversees is multiculturalism - a policy followed by successive government since the 1960s.

It was originally designed to strengthen engagement and relations between Britain's different ethnic communities.

But Mr Phillips told the Times the term suggested "separateness" and was no longer useful in present-day Britain.

"We are now in a different world from the 60s and 70s," he said.

"What we should be talking about is how we reach an integrated society, one in which people are equal under the law, where there are some common values."

Labour MP Keith Vaz said Mr Phillips was wrong to say multiculturalism encouraged separatism

"Britain's multicultural society where differences are celebrated and not exploited has been a great achievement and is the envy of Europe," he said.

Britishness cannot be imposed on people of different races, cultures and religions, Mr Vaz added.

"Imposing values and cultures is similar to the attitude adopted by the missionaries," he said.

"British values have to be taught and encouraged across the whole of society and not just the ethnic minority community."

A recent London Governance survey showed only 33% of Londoners cited multiculturalism as a source of pride.

Mr Phillips also called for all Britons to embrace young Muslims with alternative outlooks.

"Even if we disagree with their views on the Middle East, religion or anything else, they are all one of us," he said.

"The first thing we must do is call them British, again and again, and again, tell them they are British Muslims and we accept them."

Culture lost

He added Britain's perceived loss of some of its key historical figures in contemporary society was also likely to affect those who are new to living in the country.

"We need to assert there is a core of Britishness," he said

"For instance, I hate the way this country has lost Shakespeare. That sort of thing is bad for immigrants.

"They want to come here not just because of jobs but because they like this country - its tolerance, its eccentricity, its Parliamentary democracy, its energy in the big cities.

"They don't want that to change," he said.

 

[Brovion]

Wrong! Think! To have loads of white kids wrapped in Union flags and all the 2G kids staring at them, that's precisely the kind of shit-stirring divisiveness the BNP wants. The school did exactly the right thing.

Englishness is the dominant culture in this country, it doesn't need special days put aside to celebrate it because we LIVE it every day. It is minority cultures that could get subsumed and lost that need careful protection and encouragement.

Disagree. Firstly the figures quoted were that more than 80% were non-white, that makes the whiteys the minority in that area (unless all the non-whites were being bussed in).

Secondly I WANT to see minority cultures subsumed! That's how we change, that why a kebab and a curry are our English national dishes and Reggae one of our main types of music. I don't want to see lots of cultural ghettoes with people jealously guarding their little patches. Join in, share, learn. On top of that there are large parts of 'Ethnic' culture that I want to see eradicated: arranged marriages, female circumcision, suttee, female enslavement, mediaeval religious laws, the African custom of stiching up a girl's vagina until her wedding night etc etc etc. These do not need 'protection and encouragement' the people who adhere to them need telling that these customs and practices have no place in Western society. I'm sorry I know you disagree but I have no time for this 'all cultures are equal' philosophy. I love the way our magpie, mongrel, polyglot English culture has grown and evolved over the years and I think this should be celebrated.

Give us the best bits of your culture and help us make England and even better place to live.


PS - The most inaccurate part of your post (and the most insulting from an English point of view) was saying that on St George's Day kids would be 'wrapped in Union flags'. No, they'd be wrapped in St George's flags. They are very different.

 

[alan partridge]

did you know the 2nd biggest producer of reggae in the world is the UK?

slightly irrelevant but interesting fact


god we're cool

 

[London Irish]

Thought-provoking post, Brovian. Yes, you have me bang to rights for confusing the union/St George's flags - apologies for that. Much of your post is a very nuanced defence of multiculturalism and how immigrant cultures mix beneficially with the host culture and how western approaches to individual rights can help eradicate the backward abuses of some immigrant cultures.

But Brovian, you seem to blunder about on the starting point of this multicultural process. To say you want to see minority cultures subsumed is a pretty stupid "headline" summary of your views and would align you with the racists unless you clarify further - which thankfully you did. It is up to you I suppose if you want to give out such a hostage to fortune in being misunderstood.

The core misapprehension you labour under is that somehow immigrants coming to this country want to recreate their own traditional culture 100% in England. This is painful ignorant bollocks. The vast majority of immigrants coming to this country make huge efforts to integrate and adapt. That they try and preserve aspects of their old country is a good thing in precisely the way you describe.

And as for "arranged marriages, female circumcision, suttee, female enslavement, mediaeval religious laws, the African custom of stiching up a girl's vagina until her wedding night etc". WHAT A f***ing LOAD OF CRAP to pretend these are now big problems in Britain - all these errant 1G practices get destroyed in one fell swoop by 2G immigrants.

The mongrel polyglot culture you champion will only keep evolving in a healthy way if minority cultures do not face the kind of hostility from the racist fellow-travellers who for some reason best known to themselves feel threatened by visible symbols of non-English culture.

Brovian, back to that school. You're not thinking HARD enough. It is irrelevant whether the whites formed a mere 20% of that school and the 2Gs 80%. If the school had allowed the 20% to come in wrapped in St George's flags, you would have had a situation where the all the white kids would have been clearly defining themselves apart from the black kids. That's explosive shit and what the BNP tries to do constantly with their disgusting politics. The school could not allow that to happen.

Lord Bracknell, Phillips is all over the place on this at the moment and reflects the utter panic in the higher reaches of Blairism about how to cope with the radicalising Asian youth in this country.

Phillips recently made a superb critique of how the French government's attempts to wipe out Islamic symbols from schools was a capitulation to the French racists. Ironically, his attack on multiculturalism makes precisely the same error.

But Islington Trevor did give me my biggest laugh of the year.

When Benjamin Zephaniah told the Queen to stuff her honour, Phillips wrote a full-page open letter to Zephaniah in the Evening Standard denouncing him, but had the wonderful cheek to sign it, "Yours in struggle, Trevor".

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Quite right, London Irish.

I might even quote the words of St Patrick when he used the shamrock to explain the meaning of the trinity.

But I guess the flag wavers might run us out of town.

 

[attila]

Some good stuff here. Exactly the debate needed. Which is why I did the gig.
Cheers Pavillionnaire for starting it!