Are conspiracy theories destroying democracy?

[Nibble]

From the grand master of government manipulation.. “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph Goebbels

So when exactly did governments stop telling lies? Watergate.. The Iran/Contra scandal? The people at the top (governments to multi nationals) lie.. and thats a fact thats proved year after year.. its part of the human condition.

I'm not getting into CT debate on this one, been done to death but just as a point of fact. Not many people did actually get fooled by the Nazis, hence WW2. Those that were supposedly fooled were mostly German citizens and there's a fairly solid argument that they were wise to what the Nazis were up to but were happy to go along with it as it was arguably going to improve their lot. Being fooled and being in denial are quite distinct states of mind. So don't take everything on face value too much.

 

[Goldstone76]

Do I have to ask you for a third time Goldstone76;

Its quite simple; Do you believe the planes were also carrying napalm?

You can argue about a million things at once but I am only interested in the answer to my question first.

My feeling is no napalm.. there was no need for it. The planes were the illusion required to bring down the twin towers and the excuse for building 7. We could always drift onto the subject of the Pentagon plane crash and the amazing shrinking entry hole a plane made.. or was it a Cruise missile??

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

It will be interesting to hear how the US authorities justify the phone tapping of dozens of other countries heads of governments including those of their closest allies. That's if they are ever held to account.

You can see why there are Edward Snowdens and Julian Assanges in this world.

 

[Goldstone76]

I'm not getting into CT debate on this one, been done to death but just as a point of fact. Not many people did actually get fooled by the Nazis, hence WW2. Those that were supposedly fooled were mostly German citizens and there's a fairly solid argument that they were wise to what the Nazis were up to but were happy to go along with it as it was arguably going to improve their lot. Being fooled and being in denial are quite distinct states of mind. So don't take everything on face value too much.

I agree with you Nibble.. but its an indication of how government manipulates.. whether Nazi or Republican or even Tory/Liberal/Labour.. They manipulate. Unfortunately I feel people today just go along with what is said. Democracy is an ideal that died a while ago. Doesnt matter who is voted in.. same old same old..

 

[Nibble]

I agree with you Nibble.. but its an indication of how government manipulates.. whether Nazi or Republican or even Tory/Liberal/Labour.. They manipulate. Unfortunately I feel people today just go along with what is said. Democracy is an ideal that died a while ago. Doesnt matter who is voted in.. same old same old..

I think it's a myth that people just go along with it.

 

[Goldstone76]

I think it's a myth that people just go along with it.

Well its a mixed reaction.. The Mail readers (who will agree with everything) to the anarchists (who dont).. But on the whole people do not do anything. There is no real anger, rather there is complacency imho. Numbed by TV and fear of losing your job..

 

[symyjym]

My feeling is no napalm.. there was no need for it. The planes were the illusion required to bring down the twin towers and the excuse for building 7. We could always drift onto the subject of the Pentagon plane crash and the amazing shrinking entry hole a plane made.. or was it a Cruise missile??

Right that is better sticking to one thing at a time, but forget about WTC7 and the Pentagon for now.

If we can go point by point without bringing in Pearl Habor, Kennedy or Watergate it would be helpful.

Now I made the point earlier about the collapse of the towers starting at the exact point the planes hit. As with the video below.

Question 1: Do we agree the towers collapsed at the exact point the planes hit?

Question 2: Did you see any explosions preceding the collapse of the tower?

Question 3: Did America need the towers to collapse go to war, or do you think that just the planes crashing into them were enough to initiate it?

Question 4: If you believe that the planes crashing into them was enough to go to war, why would they need to take down the towers?

 

[pipkin112]

Im guessing your not aware that explosives can be detonated in a number of ways. A pre set option to detonate from floor x to floor z then from below x in sequence for example. Can you explain the existence of nano thermite or why building 7 freefalled and it wasnt even hit. Please dont use the excuse that fire made building 7 collapse as that has never happened and fire isnt hot enough to turn metal to butter.

Heres a list of which agencys were in building 7..

Tenant Square Feet Floor Industry
Salomon Smith Barney 1,202,900 GRND,1-6,13,18-46 Financial Institution
IRS Regional Council 90,430 24, 25 Government
U.S. Secret Service 85,343 9,10 Government
C.I.A. N/A N/A Government
American Express Bank International 106,117 7,8,13 Financial Institution
Standard Chartered Bank 111,398 10,13,26,27 Financial Institution
Provident Financial Management 9,000 7,13 Financial Institution
ITT Hartford Insurance Group 122,590 19-21 [Insurance]
First State Management Group, Inc 4,000 21 Insurance
Federal Home Loan Bank 47,490 22 Financial Institution
NAIC Securities 22,500 19 Insurance
Securities & Exchange Commission 106,117 11,12,13 Government
Mayor's Office of Emergency Mgmt 45,815 23 Government

Now question what documents and 'potential evidence' was lost because of building 7's demolishment. Apart from a reason to go to war against the so called terrorists it also meant a huge income to defence contractors (Rumsfeld for example was a beneficiary) but also it meant the bringing in of the Homeland Security Act that has in turn made the USA a police state by default. As the years roll by we hear that the USA is spying on everyone.. that there is a subculture of government dealings that is anything but democratic. We live in a worse place now than pre 911. For those who are open minded enough to ask questions of government and for the government to not 'open the books' we can only assume they have something to hide.

“He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999, It was on his mind. He said to me: ‘One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.’ And he said, ‘My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.’ He said, ‘If I have a chance to invade….if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency.” Journalist and author Mickey Herskowitz

Herskowitz said that Bush expressed frustration at a lifetime as an underachiever in the shadow of an accomplished father. In aggressive military action, he saw the opportunity to emerge from his father’s shadow. The moment, Herskowitz said, came in the wake of the September 11 attacks. “Suddenly, he’s at 91 percent in the polls, and he’d barely crawled out of the bunker.”

Make of the facts both individually and as a sum as you will.. facts are facts and the most glaring fact of all is the cost of the 911 Commission report of the events that surrounded 911..

Amount of money allocated for the 1986 Challenger disaster investigation: $75 million
Amount of money allocated for the 2004 Columbia disaster investigation: $50 million
Amount of money allocated for Clinton-Lewinsky investigation: $40 million
Amount of money allocated for the 9/11 Commission: $14 million

 

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

Question 3: Did America need the towers to collapse go to war, or do you think that just the planes crashing into them were enough to initiate it?

The fact that this thread has taken on 'What happened during 9/11?' obsession tells us something about human psychology and how easy it is to manufacture consent. On a previous post, it was mentioned that Allende was assassinated. This was done under collusion of CIA and the US Government with full backing from Kissinger and a guerilla army. It can be argued that 9/11 was a conspiracy or not, and the semantics to go with it political awareness/conspiracy; however, that it revolves around what happened is less relevant than the utter catastrophic interventions that followed. Not only this, not to belittle the tragic circumstances of 9/11: way more people were killed by US intervention in Chile on September 1973. According to the media, the poor do not matter. That is the real conspiracy.

 

[symyjym]

Good video pipkin112, this is exactly the way I see it, I just hope Goldstone76 will take the time to view it.

I know he has told me to watch a 2 hour conspiracy video, so I’m sure he won’t mind taking the time to view a 3 minute concise and to the point one.

 

[symyjym]

The fact that this thread has taken on 'What happened during 9/11?' obsession tells us something about human psychology and how easy it is to manufacture consent. On a previous post, it was mentioned that Allende was assassinated. This was done under collusion of CIA and the US Government with full backing from Kissinger and a guerilla army. It can be argued that 9/11 was a conspiracy or not, and the semantics to go with it political awareness/conspiracy; however, that it revolves around what happened is less relevant than the utter catastrophic interventions that followed. Not only this, not to belittle the tragic circumstances of 9/11: way more people were killed by US intervention in Chile on September 1973. According to the media, the poor do not matter. That is the real conspiracy.

A conspiracy is to conspire a situation to an advantage, it happens in all levels of society as well as the top, and people go to different lengths to achieve a goal.

I find the biggest problem with modern day 911 conspiricy theorist is that this in itself covers up other things whilst it has all the attention.

In some sense it is handy for the government to have hundreds of wild claims of events on that day and it wouldn't surprise me if they spread some of the conspiracy theories themselves to cover something else up. So dedicated conspiracy theorists can be their own worst enemy and really only spread confusement and undermine themselves.

 

[Guinness Boy]

A conspiracy is to conspire a situation to an advantage, it happens in all levels of society as well as the top, and people go to different lengths to achieve a goal.

I find the biggest problem with modern day 911 conspiricy theorist is that this in itself covers up other things whilst it has all the attention.

In some sense it is handy for the government to have hundreds of wild claims of events on that day and it wouldn't surprise me if they spread some of the conspiracy theories themselves to cover something else up. So dedicated conspiracy theorists can be their own worst enemy and really only spread confusement and undermine themselves.

Well The Truth and Goldstone76 do seem remarkably keen on posting this stuff wherever and whenever they can. I think you're on to something. So ridiculous are their claims that they must be government agents spreading stupid conspiracies so that the real ones don't get discovered. I'm off to make a YouTube video about it all based on no evidence whatsoever. Then I'm going to tell all my online "friends" about it.

 

[symyjym]

Well The Truth and Goldstone76 do seem remarkably keen on posting this stuff wherever and whenever they can. I think you're on to something. So ridiculous are their claims that they must be government agents spreading stupid conspiracies so that the real ones don't get discovered. I'm off to make a YouTube video about it all based on no evidence whatsoever. Then I'm going to tell all my online "friends" about it.

Yep you can call the video The Truth About The Conspiracy Theory Conspiracy Conspiracy.

 

[beorhthelm]

Goldstone76, are you still looking for that thermite evidence or you given up?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Goldstone76, are you still looking for that thermite evidence or you given up?

If he's not sure what he discusses down the local it's unlikely he's going to actually know about thermite evidence.

 

[Mowgli37]

c) the BBC is highly toxic and a Government propaganda device.

you couldn't make it up!!! Fair enough if you just don't like it generally but this is just an insane accusation!!

 

[Gangsta]

a) democracy does not exist, anyone that truly believe the UK is a democracy is insanely ignorant.
b) CT cannot be all put in a basket. Diana, JFK, 911 (main ones) are seperate and need to be looked at seperately.
c) the BBC is highly toxic and a Government propaganda device.

a) depends entirely on your definition of democracy. A good start is The Republic. It can be many diverse things. Necessity has brought us to this place. Its not perfect but the possible alternatives are much worse.
b) with you 100%. Some CTs demand much greater scrutiny, others are hilarious ( dont get me wrong I would be tickled pink if it turns out the Duke of Edinburgh had Diana bumped off for being a bit annoying )
c)Utter nonsense. Some of the editorial decisions made recently are bizarre. Head story yesterday evening - yet another report published by Labour challanging gov policy. There have been 4 or 5 of these taking up valuable air time at top or near top of news programmes in last 12 months alone. If the reports were from trusted third parties or credible unbiased persons/organisations then fair enough. How can this be anything other than lazy journalism, but for the editors to decide they should carry that degree of importance is ridiculous. Needless to say majority have either not stood up to scrutiny or are honestly unprovable and will be for years.

I cannot remember any opposition "reports" ever featuring when Bliar/Brown were in power, funny that. BBC is and is likely to be for many years to come, a left-leaning organisation. I dont have a massive problem with that as it balances out some of the right wing press but come on.

 

[Gangsta]

Well The Truth and Goldstone76 do seem remarkably keen on posting this stuff wherever and whenever they can. I think you're on to something. So ridiculous are their claims that they must be government agents spreading stupid conspiracies so that the real ones don't get discovered. I'm off to make a YouTube video about it all based on no evidence whatsoever. Then I'm going to tell all my online "friends" about it.

I hope they are up to date with Conspiracy 58. The best football conspiracy ever, and a great side-on view of the psychology of CTs. But then again, did anyone here actually attend any of the matches in the 1958 world cup, maybe it didnt really happen...

 

[The Truth]

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.tv/ New tv channel coming out. A lot of info on subjects raised on this thread.

 

[Mowgli37]

My favourite theory is the ludicrous suggestion Stanley Kubrick made the Shining as his "confession" that he faked the moon landing for NASA and the American Government