'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far?

[El Presidente]

I don't understand how that works. I walk through a tunnel, I get to the end of it and there is a mass of bodies because they can't move further forward because there is no space in front of them. I then have several options:
-Talk to the guy in front of me, ask him what the hold up is, if he can let me through, he can tell me or the people in front of him.
-I can wait patiently for the obstruction to pass
-I can turn back, letting the people I turn to know there's no room. Spread word backwards so that the queue of people in the tunnel start heading back before turning back myself, so avoid exacerbating things. I know that is easy to say after the fact, but I know I'm not the sort of person to push people in queues or crowds to get somewhere urgently.

I'm also confused as to how the fans turning back in the tunnel exacerbated things in the pen.

Take a look at the slides on the BBC Acker

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19545126

 

[Hamilton]

Bwian, you have been chucking the FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND pages of evidence at me all week, now you say that you have not read them all. Please answer my earlier questions.

Ive read many of your posts on this and I'm starting to think you should change your name to wellslowwoody.

Go read the report. I don't believe you want to understand its content and this is more about you than any evidence. Clearly you are so better informed that all the people appointed to the panel. If you are so insightful, then let us know what evidence you have to the contrary. Then, is there any chance you can solve the middle east peace problems? Maybe you can help the North Koreans out with their inability to see eye to eye with the south?

I believe you are so stuck in your view that even if the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire was to say "I have incontrovertible proof that Liverpool fans did not play a part in the Hillsborough disaster and that we are culpable and I have the support of every officer in my force" then you'd still be saying the report was flawed.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Rather than having a go on Nsc, try reading the evidence for yourself.

The guy throwing it at me has not read it himself! FFS.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The guy throwing it at me has not read it himself! FFS.

How does that stop you reading it?

 

[wellquickwoody]

There was pushing because they were impatient.

Edited for you. Not in any form of humour, just the obvious truth.

 

[El Presidente]

Sorry Pres, could you please send/quote the actual paragraphs to me? I am honest enough to say that I will dissect the quotes, and check their relevance.

Fair enough mate

"It is evident… that the safety of the crowd admitted to the terrace was compromised at every level: access to the turnstiles from the public highway; the condition and adequacy of the turnstiles; the management of the crowd by South Yorkshire Police (SYP) and the Sheffield Wednesday FC (SWFC) stewards; alterations to the terrace, particularly the construction of pens; the condition and placement of crush barriers; access to the central pens via a tunnel descending at a 1 in 6 gradient; emergency egress from the pens via small gates in the perimeter fence; and lack of precise monitoring of crowd capacity within the pens.

"These deficiencies were well known and further overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in 1987 and on the terrace in 1988 were additional indications of the inherent dangers to crowd safety. The risks were known and the crush in 1989 was foreseeable."

"The flaws in responding to the emerging crisis on the day were rooted in institutional tension within and between organisations.

"This was reflected in: a policing and stewarding mindset predominantly concerned with crowd disorder; the failure to realise the consequences of opening exit gates to relieve congestion at the turnstiles; the failure to manage the crowd's entry and allocation between the pens; the failure to anticipate the consequences within the central pens of not sealing the tunnel; the delay in realising that the crisis in the central pens was a consequence of overcrowding rather than crowd disorder.

"Not only was there delay in recognising that there were mass casualties, the major incident plan was not correctly activated and only limited parts were then put into effect. As a result, rescue and recovery efforts were affected by lack of leadership, co-ordination, prioritisation of casualties and equipment.

"The emergency response to the Hillsborough disaster has not previously been fully examined, because of the assumption that the outcome for those who died was irretrievably fixed long before they could have been helped.

"It is not possible to establish whether a more effective emergency response would have saved the life of any one individual who died. Given the evidence disclosed to the panel of more prolonged survival of some people with partial asphyxiation, however, a swifter, more appropriate, better-focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives."

"It is evident from the disclosed documents that from the outset SYP sought to establish a case emphasising exceptional levels of drunkenness and aggression among Liverpool fans, alleging that many arrived at the stadium late, without tickets and determined to force entry.

"Eight years after the disaster it was revealed publicly for the first time that statements made by SYP officers were initially handwritten as 'recollections', then subjected to a process of 'review and alteration' involving SYP solicitors and a team of SYP officers.

"Some 116 of the 164 statements identified for substantive amendment were amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to SYP."

The thread was originally about the chanting though!

 

[Billy the Fish]

There was pushing because there were insufficient turnstiles. I'm not saying that Scousers are angelic, and have given them plenty of stick about other things, but on this one they are the innocent parties.

But not everyone sees it like that and I think it's what causes this debate to arise, it can't be as black and white as "it's 100% not their fault" without giving a reason or seeing pictures, diagram etc so you can form a mental picture of the situation.

And before I get flamed I am only talking about the crush outside before the gates were opened. Everyone can see how the crush in the ground happened with the tunnel and the middle pen not being blocked, but what happened before that hasn't been made clear. Is that explained in as much detail by the Taylor report also?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Regardless of how the crush started, once the police realised that there was a problem, only one ambulance was allowed to treat the dead/dying and it has been proved that 41 of the victims were still alive at 3.15pm. That was the cut off point that the coroner decided to declare the 96 dead, even though one mother has proof that her son was still alive at 4pm. If that was a relative of yours, wouldn't you want to know why he was denied medical help? This is why the Jft96 are asking for the inquests to be reopened.

 

[El Presidente]

Edited for you. Not in any form of humour, just the obvious truth.

Why were they impatient though?

 

[wellquickwoody]

Ive read many of your posts on this and I'm starting to think you should change your name to wellslowwoody.

Go read the report. I don't believe you want to understand its content and this is more about you than any evidence. Clearly you are so better informed that all the people appointed to the panel. If you are so insightful, then let us know what evidence you have to the contrary. Then, is there any chance you can solve the middle east peace problems? Maybe you can help the North Koreans out with their inability to see eye to eye with the south?

I believe you are so stuck in your view that even if the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire was to say "I have incontrovertible proof that Liverpool fans did not play a part in the Hillsborough disaster and that we are culpable and I have the support of every officer in my force" then you'd still be saying the report was flawed.

The same questions up you regarding age, team, choice of seat/terrace sir?

 

[Questions]

I don't understand how that works. I walk through a tunnel, I get to the end of it and there is a mass of bodies because they can't move further forward because there is no space in front of them. I then have several options:
-Talk to the guy in front of me, ask him what the hold up is, if he can let me through, he can tell me or the people in front of him.
-I can wait patiently for the obstruction to pass
-I can turn back, letting the people I turn to know there's no room. Spread word backwards so that the queue of people in the tunnel start heading back before turning back myself, so avoid exacerbating things. I know that is easy to say after the fact, but I know I'm not the sort of person to push people in queues or crowds to get somewhere urgently.

Of course people at the back were pushing. That is what happens when crowds are not controlled. If you had got to the ground that day at Hillsborough early all the good manners in the world would have made very little difference as to whether you went home again that night or not.
People were let in just as the game started and all went to the same area and a crush developed. A slight push at the back starts an avalanche effect.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But not everyone sees it like that and I think it's what causes this debate to arise, it can't be as black and white as "it's 100% not their fault" without giving a reason or seeing pictures, diagram etc so you can form a mental picture of the situation.

And before I get flamed I am only talking about the crush outside before the gates were opened. Everyone can see how the crush in the ground happened with the tunnel and the middle pen not being blocked, but what happened before that hasn't been made clear. Is that explained in as much detail by the Taylor report also?

Yes it is. Please have a look at the link that I posted, here it is again.
http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

 

[El Presidente]

But not everyone sees it like that and I think it's what causes this debate to arise, it can't be as black and white as "it's 100% not their fault" without giving a reason or seeing pictures, diagram etc so you can form a mental picture of the situation.

And before I get flamed I am only talking about the crush outside before the gates were opened. Everyone can see how the crush in the ground happened with the tunnel and the middle pen not being blocked, but what happened before that hasn't been made clear. Is that explained in as much detail by the Taylor report also?

Fair enough BtF, but I have linked to the diagrams that showed what happened twice on this thread already!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19545126

 

[Questions]

But not everyone sees it like that and I think it's what causes this debate to arise, it can't be as black and white as "it's 100% not their fault" without giving a reason or seeing pictures, diagram etc so you can form a mental picture of the situation.

And before I get flamed I am only talking about the crush outside before the gates were opened. Everyone can see how the crush in the ground happened with the tunnel and the middle pen not being blocked, but what happened before that hasn't been made clear. Is that explained in as much detail by the Taylor report also?

A wholly inadequate area for queuing as you entered the ground contributed to the crush outside. The FA will answer to this in due course I hope.

 

[Acker79]

Acker, there is a good diagram on the BBC website which shows how the problem arose, and the issue in relation to the way the pens were organised......here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19545126

Maybe the diagram is too basic, but why didn't fans go to the other two pens? Were they closed, did they still need to access them through the tunnels? The quote from the report suggests the problem was that they didn't stop people using the tunnel, not that they were forcing people to use it, suggesting there were other access points. I can imagine from that diagram that the one to the right side as we look sat the diagram couldn't be accessed from Gate C, but the one to the left is closest to the gate.

I'm starting to feel like it seems I'm desperate to blame the fans, I'm not, I don't want to, this is just something I've never seen explained. But like I said in my last post before replying to this, I'm going to finish reading the reports and try not to post too much on this topic until I know more about the whole thing. I guess I was just hoping this aspect would be explained by someone in case I get distracted and it takes me months to read the report. I'm only 15 pages in on taylors final report at the moment...

 

[El Presidente]

Maybe the diagram is too basic, but why didn't fans go to the other two pens? Were they closed, did they still need to access them through the tunnels? The quote from the report suggests the problem was that they didn't stop people using the tunnel, not that they were forcing people to use it, suggesting there were other access points. I can imagine from that diagram that the one to the right side as we look sat the diagram couldn't be accessed from Gate C, but the one to the left is closest to the gate.

I'm starting to feel like it seems I'm desperate to blame the fans, I'm not, I don't want to, this is just something I've never seen explained. But like I said in my last post before replying to this, I'm going to finish reading the reports and try not to post too much on this topic until I know more about the whole thing. I guess I was just hoping this aspect would be explained by someone in case I get distracted and it takes me months to read the report. I'm only 15 pages in on taylors final report at the moment...

Fair play to then Acker.

In true NSC stylee we have been diverted from the issue of chanting, which was what I originally was talking about in post #1!

 

[Acker79]

Yes it is. Please have a look at the link that I posted, here it is again.
http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

That's the interim report - the one rushed out to get some action points out prior to the start of the following season.

The final report:
http://www.epcollege.com/EPC/media/MediaLibrary/Knowledge%20Hub%20Documents/F%20Inquiry%20Reports/Hillsborough-Taylor-Report.pdf?ext=.pdf

 

[Acker79]

Fair play to then Acker.

In true NSC stylee we have been diverted from the issue of chanting, which was what I originally was talking about in post #1!

I did give a response to that earlier, too!
'Always the victim, it's never your fault', a chant too far? - Page 4

 

[brakespear]

This whole thread from post 1 onwards is so depressing.

96 people died.

Munich was a tragedy, heysel was terrible, the luzhniki stadium was a disaster. In each case the dead should be remembered with respect.

In some cases people should be held to account for decisions that were made. If we can't hold people to account then perhaps we should halt events that involve large masses coming together.

If I was a parent of a child that attended an event and they did not come home because of what I suspected to be the wrong decisions of people in charge on the day, would I give up my fight for justice? No. Would I expect my club to support me? Yes.

Some people have lost all sense of dignity, respect and justice. There is no debate here. The evidence is clear. What is there to debate?

Spot on.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Once again my point is the same - what was the cause of the crush in the first place?

It seems fairly clear that the decision of the police to open the gates, without there being any regulation of where the ingoing fans would end up, was the major cause of the crush. That was a decision of the police.