75 years ago today, Hitler invaded Poland, starting WWII

[drew]

I like the cut of your jib !! I think the US had influence in this as well , anyway a large proportion of Ukrainians didn't want closer ties with the EU , just look how many hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have defected to Russia .

You need to put some stats to those assertions otherwise most people here will just think they are straight out of Vlad's press office.

 

[cunning fergus]

Your analysis seems to ignore the fact that Ukraine is an independent soveriegn nation allowed to make it's own decisions. It isn't a vassal of Russia. I suggest you put your anti-eu blinkers to one side for the moment and consider it from a 21st century perspective rather than as part of the 19th century imperial mindset Putin is stuck in.

Ukraine may well be independent however its previous President was democratically elected and ousted by an uprising fomented by the EU and the US. When that situation arose it needed careful diplomacy, yet Hague, Kerry, Ashton and others all blundered in and instantly made the situation worse by providing legitimacy to the uprising and feeding expectations of pro western Ukrainians. They completely ignored the interests of plenty of pro Russian Ukrainians and consequently the perfect environment to start a civil war.

Russia was never going to take that kind of interference by the EU and US lightly, and now we have the laughable situation where CND supporting Baron Ashton is rattling the EU's very thin and blunt military sabre. The same organisation that recently got a Nobel peace prize for ensuring peace in Europe.

What I want to know is who consulted (and obtained the approval) of the EU citizens in order to extend the EU to include the Ukraine in the first place? I don't recall a referendum on this situation.............do you?

Putin may be odious but he holds the aces here, the EU and the US will not go to war.

 

[Stoo82]

I honestly believe we are seeing the engineering of the third great war occuring right before our eyes with Ukraine and ridiculous levels of funding for IS from America's allies In the middle east Saudi and Qatar. Much profit to be made from war!!

That's is bullshit.

No one can engerneer that kind of thing. It also suggests WW1 or WW2 were single wars, when they weren't.

For example - Finland was at war with Russia during WW2, but not allied to Germany. Russia was at war with German but was not allied to Britain. (Even if there was some loose-fitting alliance, Britain was not at war with Finland.

It's just never as clear-cut as two sides go to war.

What did Britain gain from WW1 and WW2? Nothing. It killed us. Why would America want to do the same?

 

[Albion Dan]

That's is bullshit.

No one can engerneer that kind of thing. It also suggests WW1 or WW2 were single wars, when they weren't.

For example - Finland was at war with Russia during WW2, but not allied to Germany. Russia was at war with German but was not allied to Britain. (Even if there was some loose-fitting alliance, Britain was not at war with Finland.

It's just never as clear-cut as two sides go to war.

What did Britain gain from WW1 and WW2? Nothing. It killed us. Why would America want to do the same?

Don't be naive. It killed the common man. The ruling elite and the finance machines of the West made and makes trillions from warfare. Also doesn't your description over the complication of ww2 sound eerily similar to the chaos currently being engineered across Eastern Europe and the Middle East?

 

[sir albion]

Thats is bullshit.

What did Briatin gain from WW1 and WW2? Nothing. It killed us.

Times have very much changed pal and these terrorist groups are well funded that's for sure...silly comparing old wars to modern wars.

 

[Stoo82]

Didn't Richard Nixon say that World War 3 actually started in 1945, and the events in Korea, Vietnam and the Cuban Missile crisis were merely battles during the ongoing conflict?

Ifs that's the case, WW1 was fought in about 1730, ww2 from about 1779-1815 and so on and so on...

 

[Stoo82]

Don't be naive. It killed the common man. The ruling elite and the finance machines of the West made and makes trillions from warfare.

What happened to the losing sides of WW1 and WW2? Germany (revolution) Austria-Hungry (revolution) Bulgaria (revolution) Russia (revolution, ending in total collapse and not recovering until 1939), Italy and most of Europe (revolution and installment of fascist governments). Even the French Republic was near total collapse in 1918. The British Empire was in free-fall after WW1. How can you free white people and dis-enfranchise darker-skinned people? Even in 1918 the British government new that. Why spend time and money transferring all you production to a military economy? Why kill off the work force in battles when they could be earning taxes and being more productive? Why 'engineer' a war only to borrow so much money from another country that it only gets payed off 50 years later?

There is no profit in total war. An even if there was, its not worth the risk.

 

[rogersix]

1st. September 1939

It seems man's inhumaity to fellow man has not diminished over the years

Will we ever learn?

er, japan invading manchuria in '36 is wot dunnit

and no, its wot we do

 

[rogersix]

Blimey, not another thread where our resident Guardian readers are now going to lecture us for 120 pages on how the 2nd World War was the fault of the Western powers due to perceived appeasement towards Germany in the aftermath of the 1st war....... I am out....enjoy.

cold war? thats over; so now power vacuum and resultant chaos

 

[drew]

Ukraine may well be independent however its previous President was democratically elected and ousted by an uprising fomented by the EU and the US. When that situation arose it needed careful diplomacy, yet Hague, Kerry, Ashton and others all blundered in and instantly made the situation worse by providing legitimacy to the uprising and feeding expectations of pro western Ukrainians. They completely ignored the interests of plenty of pro Russian Ukrainians and consequently the perfect environment to start a civil war.

Russia was never going to take that kind of interference by the EU and US lightly, and now we have the laughable situation where CND supporting Baron Ashton is rattling the EU's very thin and blunt military sabre. The same organisation that recently got a Nobel peace prize for ensuring peace in Europe.

What I want to know is who consulted (and obtained the approval) of the EU citizens in order to extend the EU to include the Ukraine in the first place? I don't recall a referendum on this situation.............do you?

Putin may be odious but he holds the aces here, the EU and the US will not go to war.

Ukraine was an independent country that was moving towards closer ties with the EU and had an agreement ready to sign. Putin interfered, put pressure on the incumbent president who then unilaterally decided not to sign. Yes there was protests in the street but it was the elected parliament that voted him out.

When ever has there been a referendum for any country to be invited into the EU?

What I do agree with is that Putin does, and always has, hold the aces.

 

[rogersix]

Ukraine may well be independent however its previous President was democratically elected and ousted by an uprising fomented by the EU and the US. When that situation arose it needed careful diplomacy, yet Hague, Kerry, Ashton and others all blundered in and instantly made the situation worse by providing legitimacy to the uprising and feeding expectations of pro western Ukrainians. They completely ignored the interests of plenty of pro Russian Ukrainians and consequently the perfect environment to start a civil war.

Russia was never going to take that kind of interference by the EU and US lightly, and now we have the laughable situation where CND supporting Baron Ashton is rattling the EU's very thin and blunt military sabre. The same organisation that recently got a Nobel peace prize for ensuring peace in Europe.

What I want to know is who consulted (and obtained the approval) of the EU citizens in order to extend the EU to include the Ukraine in the first place? I don't recall a referendum on this situation.............do you?

Putin may be odious but he holds the aces here, the EU and the US will not go to war.

cock on sir, ta for savin me thinkin an typin

 

[cunning fergus]

Ukraine was an independent country that was moving towards closer ties with the EU and had an agreement ready to sign. Putin interfered, put pressure on the incumbent president who then unilaterally decided not to sign. Yes there was protests in the street but it was the elected parliament that voted him out.

When ever has there been a referendum for any country to be invited into the EU?

What I do agree with is that Putin does, and always has, hold the aces.

Nope, the Ukraine has been politically unstable for a while, and Russia has largely been the cause of this instability.

The politically astute position would have been to work with Russia to create a more stable environment in the country, not least to help it develop economically to the benefit of the EU, Ukraine and Russia.

Yanoukuvitch did not help by playing Russia off against the EU, however the EU allowed themselves to get drawn in, and now look where that has got us.

As for not being consulted on EU expansion, why the F*** are citizens of the member states not being consulted? Who are making these decisions, it's not in any of the UK's political party manifestos, yet as we can see we (we are being affected by these decisions).

God bless the EU eh?

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Britain was not at war with Finland.

Incorrect, we declared war on Finland in December 1941, though we didn't fire a shot at them, however, we once bombed a port of theirs prior to the declaration to try and disable German transport ships who were using it.

 

[Stoo82]

Incorrect, we declared war on Finland in December 1941, though we didn't fire a shot at them, however, we once bombed a port of theirs prior to the declaration to try and disable German transport ships who were using it.

I did not know that.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Ukraine may well be independent however its previous President was democratically elected and ousted by an uprising fomented by the EU and the US. When that situation arose it needed careful diplomacy, yet Hague, Kerry, Ashton and others all blundered in and instantly made the situation worse by providing legitimacy to the uprising and feeding expectations of pro western Ukrainians. They completely ignored the interests of plenty of pro Russian Ukrainians and consequently the perfect environment to start a civil war.

Russia was never going to take that kind of interference by the EU and US lightly, and now we have the laughable situation where CND supporting Baron Ashton is rattling the EU's very thin and blunt military sabre. The same organisation that recently got a Nobel peace prize for ensuring peace in Europe.

What I want to know is who consulted (and obtained the approval) of the EU citizens in order to extend the EU to include the Ukraine in the first place? I don't recall a referendum on this situation.............do you?

Putin may be odious but he holds the aces here, the EU and the US will not go to war.

I disagree with this analysis. You seem basically to be saying Russia should be allowed to dictate to Ukraine because they share a border. I am aware of the realpolitik - basically the west wont commit troops so Russia largely has a free hand, but to cast the West as " the baddies" takes a huge stretch of the imagination and/or some pretty severe anti eu bias.

If you look back at the history of independent Ukraine Russia repeatedly interfered in the democratic process once Putin came to power. This resulted in two popular movements overthrowing presidents. The first orange revolution removed Russias placeman Yanukovich after a rigged election. The second Euromaiden revolution removed the same man who once elected had lurched suspisously to a pro Russian position.

Putin is basically using the same tactics he used to destabalise Georgia. Arm and encourage ultranationalist ethnic Russians. Provide covert assistance on the ground in the form of Russian military personnel and materiel. Encourage his proxies to break away , in Georgia as "independent" republics, in Ukraine to merge with Russia.

 

[Czechmate]

Out of interest what numbers of these defectors to Russia are ethnically Ukrainian?

From the recent past from 1919 Ukraine was a republic of the Soviet Union , apart from the Germans being in the country from 41-44 then I guess most of Ukraine's population are from the Soviet Unions past , only in 1991 it became a separate country .

 

[Czechmate]

You need to put some stats to those assertions otherwise most people here will just think they are straight out of Vlad's press office.

http://www.dw.de/unhcr-730000-flee-ukraine-for-russia/a-17833179 there you go , figures from the UN .

I expect they had the choice of walking the other way but they preferred to go to Russia .

 

[Czechmate]

Putin is basically using the same tactics he used to destabalise Georgia. Arm and encourage ultranationalist ethnic Russians. Provide covert assistance on the ground in the form of Russian military personnel and materiel.

Of course the West would never dream of doing this .

 

[cunning fergus]

I disagree with this analysis. You seem basically to be saying Russia should be allowed to dictate to Ukraine because they share a border. I am aware of the realpolitik - basically the west wont commit troops so Russia largely has a free hand, but to cast the West as " the baddies" takes a huge stretch of the imagination and/or some pretty severe anti eu bias.

If you look back at the history of independent Ukraine Russia repeatedly interfered in the democratic process once Putin came to power. This resulted in two popular movements overthrowing presidents. The first orange revolution removed Russias placeman Yanukovich after a rigged election. The second Euromaiden revolution removed the same man who once elected had lurched suspisously to a pro Russian position.

Putin is basically using the same tactics he used to destabalise Georgia. Arm and encourage ultranationalist ethnic Russians. Provide covert assistance on the ground in the form of Russian military personnel and materiel. Encourage his proxies to break away , in Georgia as "independent" republics, in Ukraine to merge with Russia.

You are free to disagree, however I think you are being naive.

As we can see in Syria and Iraq, political situations are not a binary case of good and bad, but usually bad, really bad and outright evil.

Russia under Putin is not going to win any nobel peace prizes, and I understand his influence on Ukraine. However antagonising him by playing politics in his front yard is never going to end well either, even more so if you are not willing to raise the stakes when he makes a call.

The EU and the US are guilty of this idiocy and beyond the tragic descent into a Ukrainian civil war we (in the EU) will all have to reap the economic whirlwind of the West's foolishness; not a great strategic move in the current economic climate, as yesterday’s EU factory production indicated.

The EU has to stop somewhere, and on what democratic mandate are the EU's technocrats negotiating the accession of other states? Why are the citizens of the member states not consulted on these political aims of the EU, and why do national politicians never publicise it in their elections…………….do you think Ed Miliband will show his strong support for Turkey’s accession in the forthcoming national election or will he keep it quiet about it?

http://ceftus.org/2012/07/04/message-from-ed-miliband/

Contrasting the political legitimacy of Russia and the EU is like comparing two dog turds. Who are the EU to preach about democracy in nation states after they shafted democratic leaders in Italy and Greece, by parachuting in Monti and Paperdemos.

Just because I have contempt for the EU does men I support Putin, however in this case I completely understand what provoked his response.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

From the recent past from 1919 Ukraine was a republic of the Soviet Union , apart from the Germans being in the country from 41-44 then I guess most of Ukraine's population are from the Soviet Unions past , only in 1991 it became a separate country .

That doesn't answer the original question, when talking about ethnicity I'm talking about those who regard themselves culturally and linguistically as Ukrainian as opposed to those who regard themselves as culturally and linguistically Russian. Once more, what numbers of these defectors are ethnically Ukrainian?