4th Test build up, KP being magnanimous

[drew]

Can anyone think of a more embarrassing sporting debacle than the current tour. Since 2003 and the rugby world cup win, the nation has had some ups and downs, far more ups than downs though, but nothing comes close to the abject failure of this touring team.

 

[joeinbrighton]

The worst Australian team I've seen in my lifetime was the one that hammered England 4-0 in England in 1989. That summer England were in such disarray, they used 29 players in the series and their best batsman got himself into a psychological meltdown facing a bowler sending down medium pace trundlers. That said, this current team is not a lot better and the best 2 teams in test cricket are currently playing in South Africa, with England having to face one of them over here next summer. They can bounce back from this, but that 06/07 team had to face some more pain losing home series against India and South Africa before they snatched the Ashes back in 2009. A similar transitional period is coming.

 

[joeinbrighton]

Apologies...got my numbers mixed up...put 5 instead of 6.

As you've acknowledged, I said he should bat at 6, not 5. Shane Warne suggested a couple of tests ago that it would make more sense to move him up to 6 rather than expose a new all-rounder in that position, although since then, Stokes scored his maiden test century batting in that position. I still think there was good logic to Warne's suggestion though. Saying Prior has 'just had a few cameos' with the bat is ridiculous though. Until the last series or so, he was averaging 43 in test cricket. That's a better average than any other English wicket keeper-batsman I can remember, including Alec Stewart, although I guess some allowance has to be made for not outs.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's too soon to start the autopsy and bloodletting yet, we still have to find a team that can compete for 5 days in Sydney. I think the 5-0 is almost nailed on bar an excellent innings of 200 ish from one of our batsmen or weather interference. Lot's of heads are going to roll over this, some will fall on their swords and some will get the chance to go back to basics and regain some form.

Compete for 5 days, bloodyhell, we've barely managed to compete for 1 day in 4 tests so far!!!

 

[Brovion]

Can anyone think of a more embarrassing sporting debacle than the current tour. Since 2003 and the rugby world cup win, the nation has had some ups and downs, far more ups than downs though, but nothing comes close to the abject failure of this touring team.

I said much the same thing a couple of pages back. We've all seen some shocking England performances in a number of sports over the years but given the standard of the opposition this really has to be the worst. Can they find enough backbone and determination to put up a fight in the last Test? Never mind five defeats, can we avoid five utter thrashings?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

As you've acknowledged, I said he should bat at 6, not 5. Shane Warne suggested a couple of tests ago that it would make more sense to move him up to 6 rather than expose a new all-rounder in that position, although since then, Stokes scored his maiden test century batting in that position. I still think there was good logic to Warne's suggestion though. Saying Prior has 'just had a few cameos' with the bat is ridiculous though. Until the last series or so, he was averaging 43 in test cricket. That's a better average than any other English wicket keeper-batsman I can remember, including Alec Stewart, although I guess some allowance has to be made for not outs.

I thought your post was eerily similar to what I had heard Warne say!

 

[Bold Seagull]

Got to stick with Bairstow, this series has long gone on hopefully Johnny will come out stronger as England go forward.

The mere suggestion that Prior should come back primarily to support Cook as captain is pretty much confirming he shouldn't be captain to me.

If he can't lead a new group he shouldn't be doing the job.

 

[spring hall convert]

Can anyone think of a more embarrassing sporting debacle than the current tour. Since 2003 and the rugby world cup win, the nation has had some ups and downs, far more ups than downs though, but nothing comes close to the abject failure of this touring team.

- Germany 4 England 1 for me personally was close to this level of humiliation
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- The wally with the brolly Croatia night wasn't too far off
- The 06/07 whitewash, though as discussed previously that was a far better Australian side (we went with hopes of winning though, I remmeber the pain!)
- First game of the 2007 Rugby World Cup when South Africa spanked us to nil.
- Losing to Ireland in the last cricket world cup.

Not sure I can think of too much else off the top of my head, the thing with a cricket humiliation is there's over a month of it, makes it unique really.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

- Germany 4 England 1 for me personally was close to this level of humiliation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- The wally with the brolly Croatia night wasn't too far off
- The 06/07 whitewash, though as discussed previously that was a far better Australian side (we went with hopes of winning though, I remmeber the pain!)
- First game of the 2007 Rugby World Cup when South Africa spanked us to nil.
- Losing to Ireland in the last cricket world cup.

Not sure I can think of too much else off the top of my head, the thing with a cricket humiliation is there's over a month of it, makes it unique really.

The difference between this and the football ones you mention is that many of us had virtually given up on Terry, Fat Frank and Rooney et al, and so could just sneer at the tossers and move on. This abject surrender has come after years of success, and has been surprising and indeed shocking. I have never felt so deflated by the performance of a national sporting team.

 

[spring hall convert]

The difference between this and the football ones you mention is that many of us had virtually given up on Terry, Fat Frank and Rooney et al, and so could just sneer at the tossers and move on. This abject surrender has come after years of success, and has been surprising and indeed shocking. I have never felt so deflated by the performance of a national sporting team.

I'll stick with the 4-1 as being close, it polluted my enjoyment of watching England play football to the degree that I only just about care again. I take your point, but the manner of the defeat was such that I just wanted it to end from about 25 minutes in. We were comprehensively outclassed by a team that AT THE TIME weren't a million miles better than us on paper.

It might be the incomprehendible nature of this cricketing humilation or that post 85 - pre 2003, this was pretty much par for the course for an England side but it hasn't totally sunk in yet I don't think. God knows how the players must be feeling.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'll stick with the 4-1 as being close, it polluted my enjoyment of watching England play football to the degree that I only just about care again. I take your point, but the manner of the defeat was such that I just wanted it to end from about 25 minutes in. We were comprehensively outclassed by a team that AT THE TIME weren't a million miles better than us on paper.

It might be the incomprehendible nature of this cricketing humilation or that post 85 - pre 2003, this was pretty much par for the course for an England side but it hasn't totally sunk in yet I don't think. God knows how the players must be feeling.

I think the players are completely shot to bits, and just want it all to end. I don't think Trott is the only one who has suffered mentally. The schedule for 2013 was insane, I think we forget that these players are just normal blokes, and the pressure must be unbearable.

That 4-1 loss to Germany...by then we had all seen how bad we were as we limped out of the group, and the players had done their best to lose our respect and support - Rooney' s comments as he came off the pitch etc.

I had stopped caring, to a degree, before the game. But I take your point about wanting it to end early. Still, at least Upson scored!

 

[Mackenzie]

I said much the same thing a couple of pages back. We've all seen some shocking England performances in a number of sports over the years but given the standard of the opposition this really has to be the worst. Can they find enough backbone and determination to put up a fight in the last Test? Never mind five defeats, can we avoid five utter thrashings?

Hopefully there will be a crowd of disgruntled cricket supporters waiting to throw rotten fruit at them on their arrival back at Heathrow. A team of ego's and cowards.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

-
- The 06/07 whitewash, though as discussed previously that was a far better Australian side (we went with hopes of winning though, I remmeber the pain!)

Thing is what i remember of that 06/07 series is that we generally matched them quite well but then would have a really bad day that gave each test to Australia, agreed we didn't play well but not as hopelessly as this time. This time we haven't even competed or have i blotted the pain out of my memory from the previous whitewash and put a positive spin on it?

 

[spring hall convert]

I think the players are completely shot to bits, and just want it all to end. I don't think Trott is the only one who has suffered mentally. The schedule for 2013 was insane, I think we forget that these players are just normal blokes, and the pressure must be unbearable.

That 4-1 loss to Germany...by then we had all seen how bad we were as we limped out of the group, and the players had done their best to lose our respect and support - Rooney' s comments as he came off the pitch etc.

I had stopped caring, to a degree, before the game. But I take your point about wanting it to end early. Still, at least Upson scored!

I could have said that World cup campaign as a whole I suppose, the end was so bad, I'd blotted out the other 3 miserable excuses for games.

 

[spring hall convert]

Thing is what i remember of that 06/07 series is that we generally matched them quite well but then would have a really bad day that gave each test to Australia, agreed we didn't play well but not as hopelessly as this time. This time we haven't even competed or have i blotted the pain out of my memory from the previous whitewash and put a positive spin on it?

The latter, I think. With the exception of Adelaide, which was the most heartbreaking defeat I have ever seen an England team suffer, they absolutely spanked us in all the other tests.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Yes, I've got to agree that this is probably the worst beating we've taken in sport in my lifetime in terms of a series. However, losing 76-0 to Australia in the Rugby Union in 1998 - England's worst ever defeat - still makes me shudder. Out of that adversity England rebuilt and won the World Cup 5 years later. Yes, it was a second-string team, but it still featured the likes of Jonny Wilkinson, Austin Healey, Graham Rowntree, Phil Vickery.

England can draw on history and cite the way they rebounded from the 5-0 Ashes defeat of 2006/07 to win the next 3 Ashes series. Stuart Broad himself will recall as a 21 year-old getting carted for six 6s in an over by Yuvraj Singh in the World 20/20 Super 8s; the way in which his game has improved since then is testament to his mental toughness. I still don't fancy him as a captain though because I think that will give him too much to do and he can also be a bit feisty - not the best trait for an England captain (see Botham, Pietersen, Flintoff).

It happens in sport that you can get gubbed, it's how you bounce back that matters. I recall after City beat United 6-1 at Old Trafford just a few weeks later Ferguson took his team to City and dumped them out of the FA Cup.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

The latter, I think. With the exception of Adelaide, which was the most heartbreaking defeat I have ever seen an England team suffer, they absolutely spanked us in all the other tests.

Just had a look back at the results from 06/07 and you're right. The 4th and 5th tests i must have completely forgotten however i think the difference was there were actual positives that could come out of tests 1 and 3 in that they scored 350+ in the second innings on both occasions against a very good bowling attack.

 

[spring hall convert]

We're actually coming to a really interesting time in World cricket in the next couple of years. The top 4 sides are at different stages of rebuilding...

India: Are just about there, having had to replace one of the best batting line-ups the world has ever seen.
South Africa: Are probably in the best position currently, however Kallis has just retired and Smith, Steyn, Morkel, Petersen, Amla and de Villers are the wrong side of 30
Australia: Will be doing without Clarke, Haddin, Watson, Johnson & Harris soon. They have plenty of young bowlers with experience but none have really stood up yet.
England: We will need to find an opener for the stop gap of Carberry. Bell, Pietersen, Prior, Anderson & Panesar are the wrong side of 30.

 

[spring hall convert]

Just had a look back at the results from 06/07 and you're right. The 4th and 5th tests i must have completely forgotten however i think the difference was there were actual positives that could come out of tests 1 and 3 in that they scored 350+ in the second innings on both occasions against a very good bowling attack.

The Pietersen/Collingwood partnership in the 2nd test for instance. One of the most immensely satisfying nights of Ashes cricket I've ever watched, seeing both McGrath & Warne get the treatment.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

The Pietersen/Collingwood partnership in the 2nd test for instance. One of the most immensely satisfying nights of Ashes cricket I've ever watched, seeing both McGrath & Warne get the treatment.

I know its not the only issue and simplifying the issue but are we missing the graft and ability to stick around of Collingwood more than we thought? We did seem to have found that with Trott for a bit but without someone like that does the rest of the batting line-up feel over pressured and therefore fail? I think Pietersen certainly seems to play better when he's confident that the other end has someone who can stay there for a long stretch.