412 votes to 149: Parallels between the votes on Iraq and Bexit

[Pavilionaire]

Today with the reaction to the Chilcot Report I am reminded that on 18th March 2003 Parliament voted 412-149 in favour of the invasion of Iraq.

Like Brexit this was a democratic majority with an outcome shaped by the voters believing misinformation and lies.

Had those MPs known then what Chilcot has since revealed in his Report then Blair's motion would not have stood a chance and if MPs could turn back the clock they would certainly vote against the war and the Pandora's Box of disaster it unleashed.

 

[Machiavelli]

The big difference is that:
-- over the invasion of Iraq, it was the MPs that had been subjected to, and believed, the (non-sexed down) information, whereas about half the public (see opinion polls at the time) thought it was all a load of tosh -- on this, from the little I've gleaned from Chilcot, it does seem like an impressive piece of work
-- over Brexit, MPs by a considerable majority were against it probably because they were acutely aware of the operations between UK and the EU, whereas a sufficient proportion of the UK -- or, put better, (little) English and Welsh -- public had been fed a continuous drip-drip about nasty immigrants and, to a lesser degree, the loss of sovereignty.
So, the constituencies are reversed in each case.

 

[Gwylan]

Like Brexit this was a democratic majority with an outcome shaped by the voters believing misinformation and lies.

Had those MPs known then what Chilcot has since revealed in his Report then Blair's motion would not have stood a chance and if MPs could turn back the clock they would certainly vote against the war and the Pandora's Box of disaster it unleashed.

Quite a large number of MPs voted against though - including Jeremy Corbyn. I wonder how he feels seeing that most of his detractors were on the other side,

And can we stop using Pandora's Box as a metaphor for disastrous events. Pandora did open a box and let all sorts of nastiness upon the world but the point is that Hope was the last out of the box so that there's always hope in the world. I see very little that's hopeful about Iraq

 

[Pavilionaire]

The big difference is that:
-- over the invasion of Iraq, it was the MPs that had been subjected to, and believed, the (non-sexed down) information, whereas about half the public (see opinion polls at the time) thought it was all a load of tosh -- on this, from the little I've gleaned from Chilcot, it does seem like an impressive piece of work
-- over Brexit, MPs by a considerable majority were against it probably because they were acutely aware of the operations between UK and the EU, whereas a sufficient proportion of the UK -- or, put better, (little) English and Welsh -- public had been fed a continuous drip-drip about nasty immigrants and, to a lesser degree, the loss of sovereignty.
So, the constituencies are reversed in each case.

You're over-analysing it. The point is that both outcomes - invading Iraq and Brexit - were voted in on the basis of lies and deceit and that had the arguments been based on facts and best guesses we wouldn't have invaded Iraq and we wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

 

[Giraffe]

I completely fail to see how the two are linked in any way shape or form and therefore am tempted to move this thread as it's just yet another feeble attempt to discuss BREXIT for the millionth time!

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I completely fail to see how the two are linked in any way shape or form and therefore am tempted to move this thread as it's just yet another feeble attempt to discuss BREXIT for the millionth time!

Quite. Sloppy thinking by OP, who's head it just popped into, and who then decided to share it with the wider world for no good reason at all

 

[Machiavelli]

You're over-analysing it. The point is that both outcomes - invading Iraq and Brexit - were voted in on the basis of lies and deceit and that had the arguments been based on facts and best guesses we wouldn't have invaded Iraq and we wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

As against both Iraq and Brexit as I was, I wouldn't necessarily characterise either as deploying lies, precisely because facts pertain to the past, whereas what most of these were dealing with was what might happen in the future.

 

[heathgate]

I completely fail to see how the two are linked in any way shape or form and therefore am tempted to move this thread as it's just yet another feeble attempt to discuss BREXIT for the millionth time!

Indeed... it's not even apples vs pears.... it's apples vs chicken vindeloo.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Pavilionaire]

As against both Iraq and Brexit as I was, I wouldn't necessarily characterise either as deploying lies, precisely because facts pertain to the past, whereas what most of these were dealing with was what might happen in the future.

Not sure about that.

Iraq has WMD = Decisive lie.
£350 million a week extra for the NHS / Australian-style points system whilst retaining free trade with EU = Decisive lies.

 

[Jim in the West]

I think the two ARE similar, although the point I would make is that in both cases there was no plan for what to do next. It is amazing that we are seriously contemplating making a similar mistake (albeit the subject-matter is different).

 

[Hamilton]

Today with the reaction to the Chilcot Report I am reminded that on 18th March 2003 Parliament voted 412-149 in favour of the invasion of Iraq.

Like Brexit this was a democratic majority with an outcome shaped by the voters believing misinformation and lies.

Had those MPs known then what Chilcot has since revealed in his Report then Blair's motion would not have stood a chance and if MPs could turn back the clock they would certainly vote against the war and the Pandora's Box of disaster it unleashed.

You are so right. And you have been lied to. By Leave campaigners that have deserted the field.

 

[Triggaaar]

The big difference is that:
-- over the invasion of Iraq, it was the MPs that had been subjected to, and believed, the (non-sexed down) information, whereas about half the public (see opinion polls at the time) thought it was all a load of tosh -- on this, from the little I've gleaned from Chilcot, it does seem like an impressive piece of work
-- over Brexit, MPs by a considerable majority were against it probably because they were acutely aware of the operations between UK and the EU, whereas a sufficient proportion of the UK -- or, put better, (little) English and Welsh -- public had been fed a continuous drip-drip about nasty immigrants and, to a lesser degree, the loss of sovereignty.
So, the constituencies are reversed in each case.

I blame people like you for Brexit.

You obviously knew it was a bad idea, but you weren't capable of properly explaining it to us thickos, so we voted leave. If you had done a better job, we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

[Machiavelli]

I blame people like you for Brexit.

You obviously knew it was a bad idea, but you weren't capable of properly explaining it to us thickos, so we voted leave. If you had done a better job, we wouldn't be in this mess.

I haven't resorted to characterising Brexiteers as thickos, although others certainly have. It wasn't really up to me to explain the case for Remain, but it was for:
-- the Remain camp -- who just went down the 'Project Fear' route, that was well exposed by the Leave camp; whereas they should have been focusing on an explanation as to why we should remain in the EU, and a vision for the future.
-- the media, for not dealing with the issues in an adult manner (put together all the front pages of the Express, Sun, Star and Mail over the months leading up to the vote, and you'll see what I mean)

 

[yxee]

Today with the reaction to the Chilcot Report I am reminded that on 18th March 2003 Parliament voted 412-149 in favour of the invasion of Iraq.

Like Brexit this was a democratic majority with an outcome shaped by the voters believing misinformation and lies.

Had those MPs known then what Chilcot has since revealed in his Report then Blair's motion would not have stood a chance and if MPs could turn back the clock they would certainly vote against the war and the Pandora's Box of disaster it unleashed.

Get over it, seriously.

Don't pretend the lies were one-sided.

An MP vote is totally different from a national referendum.

I could carry on listing reasons why this is a ridiculous comparison,

But you won't listen.

 

[portslade seagull]

You're over-analysing it. The point is that both outcomes - invading Iraq and Brexit - were voted in on the basis of lies and deceit and that had the arguments been based on facts and best guesses we wouldn't have invaded Iraq and we wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

Lies on both sides you forgot to say that

 

[GT49er]

Iraq war: lots of lies. Parliament accepted the lies and decided - and got it wrong.

Brexit: lots of lies. Parliament fluffed taking the decision and asked the people to decide - the people didn't give the answer Parliament wanted - just the same way as the people would have rejected the Iraq war.








Hallelujah!

 

[Pavilionaire]

Get over it, seriously.

Don't pretend the lies were one-sided.

An MP vote is totally different from a national referendum.

I could carry on listing reasons why this is a ridiculous comparison,

But you won't listen.

I'm angry that political vanity led to Parliament being wilfully misled over Iraq, and I'm angry that a Brexit campaign can be focused on a lie about leaving the EU to save the NHS.

I'm very happy to listen, to reason and debate but the fact there has been backtracking on the Brexit promises while "Project Fear" is being played out already as the Brexit leaders run for cover shows the LEAVE campaign was an exercise in fantasy.

 

[Brighton Mod]

You're over-analysing it. The point is that both outcomes - invading Iraq and Brexit - were voted in on the basis of lies and deceit and that had the arguments been based on facts and best guesses we wouldn't have invaded Iraq and we wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

Well, I never thought that Sadam had access to an ICBM and the 45 minute threat to me was a non starter. MPs, in my opinion are not as clever and informed as they think and have a sheep like mentality and are always willing to send someone elses sons and daughters to war. The Brexit analogy in this case is poor, the judgement on the population you make is that they cannot see, feel and hear immigration etc. A million people marched to stop the war and it didn't work, thirty thousand march for a second referendum, its got no chance. The electorate are smarter than politicians, political parties and think tanks think and they exacted that in the referendum.
There has been since the vote a conserted effort by the media to portray those who voted for Brexit as earning below £18k in general, those over 65, those who did not attend university and those from the far right. The groups of people who the intellectuals think don't count in our society, its very poor and its even continuing on here.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Well, I never thought that Sadam had access to an ICBM and the 45 minute threat to me was a non starter. MPs, in my opinion are not as clever and informed as they think and have a sheep like mentality and are always willing to send someone elses sons and daughters to war. The Brexit analogy in this case is poor, the judgement on the population you make is that they cannot see, feel and hear immigration etc. A million people marched to stop the war and it didn't work, thirty thousand march for a second referendum, its got no chance. The electorate are smarter than politicians, political parties and think tanks think and they exacted that in the referendum.
There has been since the vote a conserted effort by the media to portray those who voted for Brexit as earning below £18k in general, those over 65, those who did not attend university and those from the far right. The groups of people who the intellectuals think don't count in our society, its very poor and its even continuing on here.

I am not saying Brexit is similar to the decision to invade Iraq War, I am simply saying that in both cases the arguments FOR were wilfully misleading to those casting their votes.

I don't see how you can generalise about MPs in the way that you've done. Charles Kennedy gave an impassioned speech to vote against the Iraq invasion and the whole of his Lib Dems party backed him up, as did a quarter of the Labour Party who voted against the wishes of their own leader and PM at the time.

The key word is integrity, i.e. the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles. Chilcott has proved Blair was NOT honest over Iraq and the Leave campaign made decisive claims that were also dishonest - here, I don't dispute that the REMAIN campaign bent the truth here and there but nowhere near to the extent employed by the Leave campaign. Indeed, the fact that some many experts across so many fields were content to endorse Remain is an endorse in part of the integrity of that campaign. Contrast that with the damning lack of experts willing to pen their name to the Leave campaign.

I look across the water and shudder at Trump's Republican nominee campaign. A wall will not be built and paid for by Mexicans to keep them out and Muslims will not be prevented from entering the USA, yet Trump obviously feels he needs to peddle this guff to get the votes he needs. This is what can happen to politics when integrity gives way to the trading of unfettered populist rallying cries with no substance on either side.

 

[yxee]

I'm angry that political vanity led to Parliament being wilfully misled over Iraq, and I'm angry that a Brexit campaign can be focused on a lie about leaving the EU to save the NHS.

I'm very happy to listen, to reason and debate but the fact there has been backtracking on the Brexit promises while "Project Fear" is being played out already as the Brexit leaders run for cover shows the LEAVE campaign was an exercise in fantasy.

So what about that immediate emergency budget Osbourne predicted? Wasn't that project fear?

Talk about lies about saving the NHS- Jeremy Hunt said it would lead to the NHS being "starved of cash".

So don't pretend it was all one-way.