4 - 0 with 31% possession...

[gordonchas]

Not sure it shows anything of a tide turning. Athletico may make the final and win La Liga playing possession football with an inferior squad to their competitors (in terms of value at least).

Not a good example, really. Atletico Madrid don't play possession football (their % possession in the CL this season for example is 43%).

Also, of the 4 semi finalists they are the one with the lowest pass completion rate.

 

[keaton]

Do they? I always thought people paid to go and watch their team play football. All this 'I demand to be entertained' stuff seems new. Did you pay to be entertained at Withdean? Because you must have felt pretty ripped off if you did.

I think in some seasons at Withdean there was far more entertaining (if technically less good) football than this season.

 

[keaton]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if half of the missed chances were put away this season we would certainly not be having this debate, because we would be champions and posters fawning over Oscar and his style of play.
What is Leo's conversion rate? 1 in 5
Barnes 1 in 9, Buckley 1 in 10 The chances have been created, a match fit Orlandi would have scored twice in 3 minutes last Friday, the same goes for Buckley against Blackpool when he ballooned in over the bar late on.
The idea of tippy tippy is to keep he ball, draw the defenders out of position and then get behind them.

What is a good conversion rate in your view? Because a top striker in the PL would have a 1 in 4/5 rate

 

[BigGully]

Not a good example, really. Atletico Madrid don't play possession football (their % possession in the CL this season for example is 43%).

Also, of the 4 semi finalists they are the one with the lowest pass completion rate.

I think you need to be careful when trying to dismiss how important possession is, away from 'gameplans' at the highest level, the only other way to play other than possession is 'losing possession', or not attempting to keep possession, both not very helpful.

Well lets take Chelseas/Mourinho accolade's for last weekends 2-0 against Liverpool.

If you accept that Chelsea's 1st goal was a 10 yard pass mis-controlled and then a player slipping and the 2nd goal was no more than an unlikely breakaway due to Liverpool's efforts to get a goal at any cost, as a non Liverpool supporter I am trying to work out where Mourinho's genius came into play above a dour 0-0 draw.

 

[keaton]

I think you need to be careful when trying to dismiss how important possession is, away from 'gameplans' at the highest level, the only other way to play other than possession is 'losing possession', or not attempting to keep possession, both not very helpful.

Well lets take Chelseas/Mourinho accolade's for last weekends 2-0 against Liverpool.

If you accept that Chelsea's 1st goal was a 10 yard pass mis-controlled and then a player slipping and the 2nd goal was no more than an unlikely breakaway due to Liverpool's efforts to get a goal at any cost, as a non Liverpool supporter I am trying to work out where Mourinho's genius came into play above a dour 0-0 draw.

Because Liverpool are poor defensively so he assumed they'd make a mistake? He may have changed it in the second half

 

[fat old seagull]

That was Real Madrid against Bayern tonight. Oscar take note..

This and this and this..... I know I keep banging on about it, but pretty keep ball is useless without an end product. Arsene Wenger started this donkey's years ago....where has it got Gunners, potless! Palarse by contrast (after management upgrade) have tightened their defence and speeded up their frontline, and saved themselves... sadly Sitting back thwarting the opposition and breaking quickly catches them on the break with their defences out of position... in my view

 

[gordonchas]

I think you need to be careful when trying to dismiss how important possession is, away from 'gameplans' at the highest level, the only other way to play other than possession is 'losing possession', or not attempting to keep possession, both not very helpful.

Well lets take Chelseas/Mourinho accolade's for last weekends 2-0 against Liverpool.

If you accept that Chelsea's 1st goal was a 10 yard pass mis-controlled and then a player slipping and the 2nd goal was no more than an unlikely breakaway due to Liverpool's efforts to get a goal at any cost, as a non Liverpool supporter I am trying to work out where Mourinho's genius came into play above a dour 0-0 draw.

I wouldn't disagree with anything that you wrote there - and especially not with the very last point. You cannot play entertaining, fast, attacking football against a massed defence (as Liverpool found out on Sunday) any more than you can play entertaining tiki-taka against a side camped in their own penalty area. The game no longer becomes a spectacle in either case.

However, my point was about using Atletico Madrid as an example of a possession-based ,successful football team, as this is not their style. If anything they are a modern version of a classical Italian side, seeking to strangle other teams' attacks and then moving the ball forward quickly. They don't counter attack like Real Madrid, Atletico look to hit Diego Costa in space - they're much more direct.

In Spanish League games, lesser sides don't allow them this space and they have more possession, however their play is quite attritional - lots of crosses (they score loads of headed goals). People who don't regularly watch them would be surprised at how direct they are compared with the current template of a typical Spanish side.

 

[BigGully]

Because Liverpool are poor defensively so he assumed they'd make a mistake? He may have changed it in the second half

What he assumed Steven Gerrard would slip after miscontrolling a simple pass, he had absolutely no intention of even attempting to challenge the Liverpool defence, non whatsovever, so his view Liverpool's defence doesn't seem to be relevant ?

I understand his gameplan which was to frustrate and make the 90 minute game into a 75 minute game etc, but his 'genius' should only be awarded by a dour 0-0 draw, not a brilliant 2-0 win.

By the way I am neither a Liverpool fan or a Mourinho hater.

 

[BigGully]

I wouldn't disagree with anything that you wrote there - and especially not with the very last point. You cannot play entertaining, fast, attacking football against a massed defence (as Liverpool found out on Sunday) any more than you can play entertaining tiki-taka against a side camped in their own penalty area. The game no longer becomes a spectacle in either case.

However, my point was about using Atletico Madrid as an example of a possession-based ,successful football team, as this is not their style. If anything they are a modern version of a classical Italian side, seeking to strangle other teams' attacks and then moving the ball forward quickly. They don't counter attack like Real Madrid, Atletico look to hit Diego Costa in space - they're much more direct.

In Spanish League games, lesser sides don't allow them this space and they have more possession, however their play is quite attritional - lots of crosses (they score loads of headed goals). People who don't regularly watch them would be surprised at how direct they are compared with the current template of a typical Spanish side.

I really do not know Athletico Madrids style and how they have succeeded.

My overall view is how possession should not be seen as a hindrance, particularly at youth levels etc.

When you play senior football 'fill your boots' in term of delivering a result anyhow.

Generally top teams do not concede possession and if they do they tend to lose more, but it can be a difficult skill to keep possession, thats why the 'dog and duck' hoof the ball and Barcelona/Bayern Munich/Real Madrid etc do not.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Not a good example, really. Atletico Madrid don't play possession football (their % possession in the CL this season for example is 43%).

Also, of the 4 semi finalists they are the one with the lowest pass completion rate.

Lets not confuse how successful or good at possession they are in individual games with the game they try to play. They are a tactical team that can play very narrow when needed, especially away from home, but are also more than capable of keeping possession, and often do. They are playing to their strengths and are flexible in doing that. You can judge a team by stats, or watch how they set themselves up tactically.

What people need to remember is that a team like Real Madrid, with some of the most expensive footballers in the world, are able to soak up pressure, give away possession, but still have the talent to score goals even when you don't have the ball. Their incredibly talented individuals are more inclined to try the difficult pass, or weaving run than have a mentality of not losing the ball. However, you need a team of massive talent to do that and win when you haven't got the ball.

Atletico aren't the best team on the planet, and are punching well above their weight, but where they can they do try to keep the ball, even if the stats suggest this isn't always successful.

 

[gordonchas]

I really do not know Athletico Madrids style and how they have succeeded.

My overall view is how possession should not be seen as a hindrance, particularly at youth levels etc.

When you play senior football 'fill your boots' in term of delivering a result anyhow.

Generally top teams do not concede possession and if they do they tend to lose more, but it can be a difficult skill to keep possession, thats why the 'dog and duck' hoof the ball and Barcelona/Bayern Munich/Real Madrid etc do not.

I think you might be trying to argue a point with me that I'm not attempting to make. My point about Atletico was in response to something BoldSeagull wrote, not yourself.

I don't advocate POMO-style hoofball as a means to an end, as like you I don't believe (in fact, I know) it will ever be a successful way of playing top level football, regardless of the aesthetics of it.

In kids and youth football it should be seen as essential to teach keeping the ball and trying to pass, even if the kids screw it up and concede a goal like Gerrard on Sunday. I doubt, though, hat message will never truly percolate the British football culture.

However, meaningless possession for its own sake is actually a form of negative football - and it drives spectators away just as surely.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I think you might be trying to argue a point with me that I'm not attempting to make. My point about Atletico was in response to something BoldSeagull wrote, not yourself.

I don't advocate POMO-style hoofball as a means to an end, as like you I don't believe (in fact, I know) it will ever be a successful way of playing top level football, regardless of the aesthetics of it.

In kids and youth football it should be seen as essential to teach keeping the ball and trying to pass, even if the kids screw it up and concede a goal like Gerrard on Sunday. That message will never truly percolate the British football culture.

However, meaningless possession for its own sake is actually a form of negative football - and it drives spectators away just as surely.

After your last post, I think we are probably in agreement as well from completely different directions.

 

[BigGully]

I think you might be trying to argue a point with me that I'm not attempting to make. My point about Atletico was in response to something BoldSeagull wrote, not yourself.

I don't advocate POMO-style hoofball as a means to an end, as like you I don't believe (in fact, I know) it will ever be a successful way of playing top level football, regardless of the aesthetics of it.

In kids and youth football it should be seen as essential to teach keeping the ball and trying to pass, even if the kids screw it up and concede a goal like Gerrard on Sunday. I doubt, though, hat message will never truly percolate the British football culture.

However, meaningless possession for its own sake is actually a form of negative football - and it drives spectators away just as surely.

My point wasnt aimed at you or anyone in particular, as I agree with what you say

 

[Brighton Mod]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if half of the missed chances were put away this season we would certainly not be having this debate, because we would be champions and posters fawning over Oscar and his style of play.
What is Leo's conversion rate? 1 in 5
Barnes 1 in 9, Buckley 1 in 10 The chances have been created, a match fit Orlandi would have scored twice in 3 minutes last Friday, the same goes for Buckley against Blackpool when he ballooned in over the bar late on.
The idea of tippy tippy is to keep he ball, draw the defenders out of position and then get behind them.

Can I burst your even bigger bubble, how many games have we played this season when we have had less than ten shots on target, that'll be most of the games we have played. If we had done this, if we had done that, if whatever. Drawing people out of position so that we can exploit the gaps they leave behind them as the opposition become as bored as the paying public. It doesn't happen like that, do you remember the Reading game and as I have now seen throughout the season a change in strategy of the opposition pressing quickly on our defenders as we try to pass across the back four creating errors from our own players. Tippy tappy from a physically small Spanish team was the correct strategy at the time, but times have moved on and new approaches have developed and our attempt to emulate such a style is poor and unproductive.

 

[westy]

Not sure it shows anything of a tide turning. Athletico may make the final and win La Liga playing possession football with an inferior squad to their competitors (in terms of value at least).

Worth a read:
http://www.thesecretfootballer.com/articles/tsf-diary/16745/lack-of-pace-cost-moyes-his-job/

Look at City and Liverpool, all about pace and moving the ball quickly going through the gears.
We are often extremely one paced. The tempo at home this season (especially in the first half) has been poor and poor results have followed. Bar QPR and Leicester at home we only seem to play at a high tempo when we go a goal down or are panicking in the last 20 mins of a game. Blackpool was yet another example the other day.

 

[BigGully]

Worth a read:
http://www.thesecretfootballer.com/articles/tsf-diary/16745/lack-of-pace-cost-moyes-his-job/

Look at City and Liverpool, all about pace and moving the ball quickly going through the gears.
We are often extremely one paced. The tempo at home this season (especially in the first half) has been poor and poor results have followed. Bar QPR and Leicester at home we only seem to play at a high tempo when we go a goal down or are panicking in the last 20 mins of a game. Blackpool was yet another example the other day.

Isnt that just a comment on the difference in levels and quality, not a reason to condemn possession football..

The alternative is a poor mans Stoke City ( under Pulis ).

 

[Bold Seagull]

Worth a read:
http://www.thesecretfootballer.com/articles/tsf-diary/16745/lack-of-pace-cost-moyes-his-job/

Look at City and Liverpool, all about pace and moving the ball quickly going through the gears.
We are often extremely one paced. The tempo at home this season (especially in the first half) has been poor and poor results have followed. Bar QPR and Leicester at home we only seem to play at a high tempo when we go a goal down or are panicking in the last 20 mins of a game. Blackpool was yet another example the other day.

Don't disagree, but high tempo and keeping the ball are not mutually exclusive. People seem to think possession is just the Guardiola / Barca model, but few would argue this season that both City and Liverpool look to keep the ball as well as playing with pace. In fact, Barca hardly play pedestrian, and it seems to be forgotten that just because they've struggled in the past couple of season (CL semi finals and 4 of the 5 La Liga titles being a struggle apparently), they've still won 3 of the last 8 CL titles, a dominance only matched by Real in the Champions League era.

This is why I've had many heated a discussion that Oscar needs time to develop this team. You don't just chuck pace and attack at a side, you get the backbone right, and the defence qualities. I'm really hopeful next season we will see that foundation enable the side to flourish in it's attacking ambition. I hope!

 

[Bold Seagull]

Isnt that just a comment on the difference in levels and quality, not a reason to condemn possession football..

The alternative is a poor mans Stoke City ( under Pulis ).

I'd echo that, it's like saying Man City and Liverpool don't play a game where they keep the ball? They're as good at keeping the ball as anyone in English football. It seems 'possession' is now being linked solely with the tactics of Barca, and I suppose Guardiola at Bayern.

Getting beat by Real's superstars is no evidence that suddenly Bayern is a poor team or their tactics are suddenly inferior. They got beat as all football teams get beat.

I wouldn't mind knowing how many sides have won the Champions league with inferior possession of the football. I'd hazard a guess at 3 of the last 10.

 

[MarioOrlandi]

Can I burst your even bigger bubble, how many games have we played this season when we have had less than ten shots on target, that'll be most of the games we have played. If we had done this, if we had done that, if whatever. Drawing people out of position so that we can exploit the gaps they leave behind them as the opposition become as bored as the paying public. It doesn't happen like that, do you remember the Reading game and as I have now seen throughout the season a change in strategy of the opposition pressing quickly on our defenders as we try to pass across the back four creating errors from our own players. Tippy tappy from a physically small Spanish team was the correct strategy at the time, but times have moved on and new approaches have developed and our attempt to emulate such a style is poor and unproductive.

Did you see the Reading Cup game at the Amex, when we completely outplayed them and had we not been so wasteful in front of goal 1-0 Could easily have been 4 or 5. Up at their place we again played them off the park with their keeper being man of the match. QPR we soaked up pressure and hit them on the break, Leicester who like us played proper football went the same way twice. We come unstuck against the packed defence lump it and hoof it teams, like Barnsley, Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds. But if we can score early their game plan goes out of the windows.
To defeat that type of team on a regular basis we need skilful players who have the vision to spot an opening (Vicente, Orlandi, Spanish Dave and Crofts) We lost a bit of craft when Noone went off to C'diff we still have that with Lualua and an emerging Solly March. Given a proper pre season where Oscar can lay down his game plans for the players to remember and sufficient drill time to practice them, next season will certainly be different. To come into a club so close to the season's start and work with players who are not your choice, Oscar has done remarkably well.
Had Gus stayed then we would have at least expected automatic promotion which he knew he could not deliver hence the imfamous tantrum on Sky.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

4-0 with 31% possession That was Real Madrid against Bayern tonight. Oscar take note..

Well if we are playing a second leg match with a 1 goal lead from our home leg and then score a couple of quick goals against a side now needing 4 to progress with time running out then getting a couple Moore meaning the opposition need 6 I'm sure that possession stats won't be that high on the priority list for the rest of the game.

A lot of the time a team losing will have more possession compared to if they were winning because they are chasing the game.

I'm sure you will also find entry of examples of teams with high percentage possession stats and scoring a lot of goals too