[News] 12-year-old girl stabbed to death in Liverpool City centre

[Fat Boy Fat]

Is it because they feel they have no value themselves any more? poor education, lack of hope and poor parenting and poor job prospects all contribute to this feeling. It's a sad sad world for many.

How broken was that poor child recently that was effectively tortured to death by his mother? If he had lived what would his life has been like? We have societal problems which will take huge investment in people and services to turn around.

And it won't happen any time soon sadly.

This, a million fold - these are shit times, in many ways, for many kids to grow up.

For many there is little or nothing to look forward to. Very sad!

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

The Leading Light, eh! Dodgy boozer...

I was being a bit naughty with the stats, like people tend to do when “trying” (and failing) to prove a point. In the graph you posted 1977 appeared to show 400 offences and 2017 600, hence 50% - conveniently ignoring, on my part, the large peak, then resulting drop. Wouldn’t make such a good argument, would it.

Not forgetting back in the 60s, 70s, 80s the amount of attacks etc were either not reported, because times were different and we simply got on with it, or even if you did pop down the police station and report it to the desk sergeant, you know as soon as you walked out of the station, it would be screwed up and thrown in the waste paper basket. Hence why bother reporting anything.

The 80's for me seemed far more violent, always being chased by other sub cultures, once being caught by Nazi Skins and on the wrong end a baseball bat and a stabbing, this was sleepy Wigan and Manchester though, Townies at the time in especially Wigan would always call you freak and start fights, in-between throwing stones at the moon.
I was not outrageously dressed either, steel toe caps, or Docs, Bleached or dark blue jeans, chequered shirt and a extended flat top or quiff shaved at the sides.
Adam and Ants were cool, are you going to see them in Brighton next year ?

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

This, a million fold - these are shit times, in many ways, for many kids to grow up.

For many there is little or nothing to look forward to. Very sad!

Much like the late 70s and early 80s then.

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

Much like the late 70s and early 80s then.

True, but there was always a feeling that something better was round the corner, something good was coming. I’m not sure that’s the case now, or maybe I’m just to jaded and saddened by much of the last few years.

 

[Weststander]

Much like the late 70s and early 80s then.

I wonder why young males kicked the hell out of, slashed and murdered folk, raped females, in the 60's, 70's and 80's?

When there were plenty of youth clubs and far fewer divorced parents.

Perhaps x percent of teens/young blokes have never been able to draw the line on boisterous behaviour, unable to feel any empathy towards a victim of the beating or rape.

I'd call them vermin, but that's non-touchy feely.

I remember a black guy on BBC R5 a couple of years ago who does an amazing job trying to work with members of black gangs in Harringey, giving a real insight. He said there are a whole load of followers, but that there are also kids/adults who are pure evil who cannot be reformed. They simply don't care one jot about another life.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I wonder why young males kicked the hell out of, slashed and murdered folk, raped females, in the 60's, 70's and 80's?

When there were plenty of youth clubs and far fewer divorced parents.

Perhaps x percent of teens/young blokes have never been able to draw the line on boisterous behaviour, unable to feel any empathy towards a victim of the beating or rape.

I'd call them vermin, but that's non-touchy feely.

I remember a black guy on BBC R5 a couple of years ago who does an amazing job trying to work with members of black gangs in Harringey, giving a real insight. He said there are a whole load of followers, but that there are also kids/adults who are pure evil who cannot be reformed. They simply don't care one jot about another life.

I worked at a youth club for 22 years on a rough council estate, and agree with that. Most kids responded to playing team games like football or volleyball, but one set of brothers murdered their sister's boyfriend by stabbing him. I knew them personally, all of them.

 

[Swansman]

I wonder why young males kicked the hell out of, slashed and murdered folk, raped females, in the 60's, 70's and 80's?

When there were plenty of youth clubs and far fewer divorced parents.

Perhaps x percent of teens/young blokes have never been able to draw the line on boisterous behaviour, unable to feel any empathy towards a victim of the beating or rape.

I'd call them vermin, but that's non-touchy feely.

I remember a black guy on BBC R5 a couple of years ago who does an amazing job trying to work with members of black gangs in Harringey, giving a real insight. He said there are a whole load of followers, but that there are also kids/adults who are pure evil who cannot be reformed. They simply don't care one jot about another life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis is often referred to when talking about why there's so few serial killers today.

Probably very simplified, and there's likely lots of explanations. As you say it is not unlikely that some people are just born that way.

 

[Happy Exile]

True, but there was always a feeling that something better was round the corner, something good was coming. I’m not sure that’s the case now, or maybe I’m just to jaded and saddened by much of the last few years.

I think that's it. I don't remember a sense of optimism or hope growing up in the 70s and 80s because I don't think you do as a child necessarily, the world happens around you as much as it happens to you, but I also don't remember feeling hopeless for the same reason. For so many children these days there's regular messaging that will amplify hopelessness though in as much as there's so many things going on outside their control that will have profound impact on them now and in the future.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Leading Light, eh! Dodgy boozer...

I was being a bit naughty with the stats, like people tend to do when “trying” (and failing) to prove a point. In the graph you posted 1977 appeared to show 400 offences and 2017 600, hence 50% - conveniently ignoring, on my part, the large peak, then resulting drop. Wouldn’t make such a good argument, would it.

As for the other stuff, I guess I must have led a bit of a sheltered life, or don’t have a punch me face! In my years of dressing like a tit in my New Romantic phase I never once got punched, threatened, chased or anything similar, maybe everyone was too busy laughing!

I even used to use the Kings Head in Cuckfield, which at the time was a biker pub, in my full Adam and the Ants regalia and ner’ once got punched!

I suppose I am fortunate as a white, heterosexual male, apart from a crap dress sense, don’t have identifiers to put me in the spotlight...

Lol! Nothing like a good statistic. I may have to recound the Mark Twain anacdote again at some point

The Leading Light, indeed.

All the best

 

[Baldseagull]

Virtually snap, mine started going around four weeks ago, two weeks ago she walked out of her way home to be with her friends, one of them had a hissy fit and ran off, the other simply went home. Mine phoned me up saying pick me up and she did not know where she was exactly (Blakers park area) I whizzed up there, heart in mouth, I dare not tell the wife she would go mental. It was only 10 minutes and I found her, but they are so naive and don't seem to have that street smarts I did at that age, having said that lockdowns maybe have taken over a year out of their growing up in the world.

Unfortunately, you only get streetwise by spending some time on the streets.

 

[Weststander]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis is often referred to when talking about why there's so few serial killers today.

Probably very simplified, and there's likely lots of explanations. As you say it is not unlikely that some people are just born that way.

I worked at a youth club for 22 years on a rough council estate, and agree with that. Most kids responded to playing team games like football or volleyball, but one set of brothers murdered their sister's boyfriend by stabbing him. I knew them personally, all of them.

I read the book From Crime To Crime by Sir Richard Henriques QC, latterly a judge. He was involved in many of the trials of the worst English crimes in the last 40 years, including Shipman and Venables/Thompson. With full access to psychological profiles.

He learnt that lads just sometimes simply have malice intent within them, by a young age.

A good home can help steer most to being civilised, whilst others just like hurting animals then people.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Not forgetting back in the 60s, 70s, 80s the amount of attacks etc were either not reported, because times were different and we simply got on with it, or even if you did pop down the police station and report it to the desk sergeant, you know as soon as you walked out of the station, it would be screwed up and thrown in the waste paper basket. Hence why bother reporting anything.

The 80's for me seemed far more violent, always being chased by other sub cultures, once being caught by Nazi Skins and on the wrong end a baseball bat and a stabbing, this was sleepy Wigan and Manchester though, Townies at the time in especially Wigan would always call you freak and start fights, in-between throwing stones at the moon.
I was not outrageously dressed either, steel toe caps, or Docs, Bleached or dark blue jeans, chequered shirt and a extended flat top or quiff shaved at the sides.
Adam and Ants were cool, are you going to see them in Brighton next year ?

My experience of growing up in Brighton between the mid 70's and early 80's was that it was far more violent than today. Most people I knew got beaten up at some point, and as pointed out above, unless there was permanent damage done, nobody would have dreamed of reporting it to the police and probably would have been laughed out of John Street had they tried. Certain areas of Brighton were much poorer than today and you had to be very wary if you were on your own at night, particularly out of 'your area'.

I have two kids in their mid twenties who have also grown up in Brighton and have had very little problems around town. As a 60+ there isn't an area of Brighton that I wouldn't quite happily walk around on my own at night. Certainly in the case of Brighton, I think it's safer than it's ever been

There have always been awful stories such as this one today, but they have always been thankfully rare.

 

[Weststander]

My experience of growing up in Brighton between the mid 70's and early 80's was that it was far more violent than today. Most people I knew got beaten up at some point, and as pointed out above, unless there was permanent damage done, nobody would have dreamed of reporting it to the police and probably would have been laughed out of John Street had they tried. Certain areas of Brighton were much poorer than today and you had to be very wary if you were on your own at night, particularly out of 'your area'.

I have two kids in their mid twenties who have also grown up in Brighton and have had very little problems around town. As a 60+ there isn't an area of Brighton that I wouldn't quite happily walk around on my own at night. Certainly in the case of Brighton, I think it's safer than it's ever been

Real world reasons for that? - CCTV, better police, dna (even thicko's are aware of the odds of getting caught), far longer prison sentences for violent crime, a tolerant place to live eg LGBT etc?

The doom doesn't come from kids. When covered in the intelligent media, young people in the main are optimists. It's parents that naturally worry and benchmark to halcyon days that were really a mix.


Having said that, I've met people who've moved their entire family and lifestyle to Brighton from inner London or Croydon, who said a key reason was so that their kids didn't grow up in a place with knife crime, gangs, moped muggings.

Another tick for Brighton and Sussex.

 

[Justice]

Virtually snap, mine started going around four weeks ago, two weeks ago she walked out of her way home to be with her friends, one of them had a hissy fit and ran off, the other simply went home. Mine phoned me up saying pick me up and she did not know where she was exactly (Blakers park area) I whizzed up there, heart in mouth, I dare not tell the wife she would go mental. It was only 10 minutes and I found her, but they are so naive and don't seem to have that street smarts I did at that age, having said that lockdowns maybe have taken over a year out of their growing up in the world.

I know your pain I was on the phone to my daughter every half hour when she started venturing out with friends and struggled to deal with the fear tbh. She took it the right way and all her mates knew they could rely on me to pick them up whenever they needed it and I still do occasionally now they are 19-20. They say to her your dads mental yet he’s always there for us which I guess is some kind of compliment.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I know your pain I was on the phone to my daughter every half hour when she started venturing out with friends and struggled to deal with the fear tbh. She took it the right way and all her mates knew they could rely on me to pick them up whenever they needed it and I still do occasionally now they are 19-20. They say to her your dads mental yet he’s always there for us which I guess is some kind of compliment.

It's only natural to worry. Even though I knew it was safer for my kids than it was for me, the first time they walked to Junior School on their own, the first time they took a bus to town, the first time they went into town at night, the first time they weren't on the last bus home etc etc etc

I had to keep reminding myself that we did all that, but without mobile phones

 

[Dr Bandler]

While the stats may show that there has not been an increase in violent crime over the years, I think it is the change in the nature of the crimes that disturbs people, along with the societal changes that surround it. By this I mean that young teens (and even younger kids) are joining gangs, taking drugs and are carrying weapons. I think that the changes there from the 70s and 80s are the ages of the kids involved, the fact that drug-taking is so commonplace (and with different drugs now) and the amount of weapon carrying. Someone who used to work with me is a mentor for young, black gang members in London. He says the situation is dire, and that most middle-class people living in nice areas (meaning me) don't realise how common it is for kids to carry weapons, and that are prepared to use them, either for "self-defence" or because it is cool and gets them accepted. He is a 6' 5'' Nigerian British man who is a black belt in Jiu Jitsu, so I guess he is not easily intimidated, but hats off to him for trying to do something in such a difficult area.

The other change is the reduction in discipline in the home, in schools and in policing. This has led to the some errant teens being emboldened and having no fear of the consequences of their actions. This leads the behaviour to escalate beyond where it would once have done for certain individuals. When I hear stories of a gang surrounding a police officer and jeering in Southwater (!) I shudder. Those of us who were teenagers in the 70s and 80s know that the police could be over-zealous and even brutal. No one would advocate going back to that, but they have been emasculated too far.

Sure there was violence when I was young; from recollection it was mainly in town centres and pubs, and also at football (going away to follow the Albion in those days was taking your life in your hands at times.) However, there wasn't the brazen disrespect for for adults and the police that there is now. Who would intervene with a gang of youths and tell them to behave now - I believe one would have done more readily then.

Hopefully this is a fair analysis of what the changes are and why some people are disturbed by the results, and that is doesn't just mark me out as a grumpy old man.

 

[Weststander]

….. The other change is the reduction in discipline in the home, in schools and in policing. This has led to the some errant teens being emboldened and having no fear of the consequences of their actions. This leads the behaviour to escalate beyond where it would once have done for certain individuals. When I hear stories of a gang surrounding a police officer and jeering in Southwater (!) I shudder. Those of us who were teenagers in the 70s and 80s know that the police could be over-zealous and even brutal. No one would advocate going back to that, but they have been emasculated too far.

Sure there was violence when I was young; from recollection it was mainly in town centres and pubs, and also at football (going away to follow the Albion in those days was taking your life in your hands at times.) However, there wasn't the brazen disrespect for for adults and the police that there is now. Who would intervene with a gang of youths and tell them to behave now - I believe one would have done more readily

Definitely.

Documentaries covering teenagers arrested for serious driving offences or violence, show them laughing at the police, a tirade of personal insults, spitting, reading from a mental crib sheet of their legal rights.

Youtube videos of the police dealing with ticket evaders in London or mask refusers on trains, reveal 20 year olds ready to head butt, also with a sneering tirade of abuse.

I know it also comes with brutality, but sometimes I envy the physical ‘directness’ of the Spanish and French police is dealing with people who take the p out of society’s laws and customs. I know through friends that no holds were barred in their enforcement of lockdowns and mask laws.

 

[PeterOut]

While the stats may show that there has not been an increase in violent crime over the years, I think it is the change in the nature of the crimes that disturbs people, along with the societal changes that surround it. By this I mean that young teens (and even younger kids) are joining gangs, taking drugs and are carrying weapons. I think that the changes there from the 70s and 80s are the ages of the kids involved, the fact that drug-taking is so commonplace (and with different drugs now) and the amount of weapon carrying. Someone who used to work with me is a mentor for young, black gang members in London. He says the situation is dire, and that most middle-class people living in nice areas (meaning me) don't realise how common it is for kids to carry weapons, and that are prepared to use them, either for "self-defence" or because it is cool and gets them accepted. He is a 6' 5'' Nigerian British man who is a black belt in Jiu Jitsu, so I guess he is not easily intimidated, but hats off to him for trying to do something in such a difficult area.

The other change is the reduction in discipline in the home, in schools and in policing. This has led to the some errant teens being emboldened and having no fear of the consequences of their actions. This leads the behaviour to escalate beyond where it would once have done for certain individuals. When I hear stories of a gang surrounding a police officer and jeering in Southwater (!) I shudder. Those of us who were teenagers in the 70s and 80s know that the police could be over-zealous and even brutal. No one would advocate going back to that, but they have been emasculated too far.

Sure there was violence when I was young; from recollection it was mainly in town centres and pubs, and also at football (going away to follow the Albion in those days was taking your life in your hands at times.) However, there wasn't the brazen disrespect for for adults and the police that there is now. Who would intervene with a gang of youths and tell them to behave now - I believe one would have done more readily then.

Hopefully this is a fair analysis of what the changes are and why some people are disturbed by the results, and that is doesn't just mark me out as a grumpy old man.

Sadly, you (like many of us) seem to have a selective memory of the past.

As just one of a good number of examples - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Keith_Blakelock

 

[Dr Bandler]

Sadly, you (like many of us) seem to have a selective memory of the past.

As just one of a good number of examples - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Keith_Blakelock

I remember that well, but weren't the differences that they were not young teenagers rioting, but rather older lads and full on adults? I also remember the sheer shock of that. Imagine being an unarmed police officer going in to that.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Definitely.

Documentaries covering teenagers arrested for serious driving offences or violence, show them laughing at the police, a tirade of personal insults, spitting, reading from a mental crib sheet of their legal rights.

Youtube videos of the police dealing with ticket evaders in London or mask refusers on trains, reveal 20 year olds ready to head butt, also with a sneering tirade of abuse.

I know it also comes with brutality, but sometimes I envy the physical ‘directness’ of the Spanish and French police is dealing with people who take the p out of society’s laws and customs. I know through friends that no holds were barred in their enforcement of lockdowns and mask laws.

I agree. I remember a Spanish policeman getting rough with some of "our finest" who wouldn't behave, and saying that they need to learn respect. They soon did behave - I remember thinking that is a better way to handle truly disgusting behaviour.